Based. Maybe she can get political asylum from Fascism.
She has actual courage. Just simply doing what you’re told without question makes you as weak as the rest.
When the world is run by criminals, being lawful is made a crime.
I don’t know why this is even news. She maintains that viewpoint when she gets out then she is going back to jail.
Either way, this story is one of laziness and entitlement. She wants the comfort of living where she does without having to do what others have done before her to get that level of comfort.
“Lazyness and entitlement” is a weird way of spelling “doesn’t want to contribute to mass murder of civilians”
This is either a really bad take or straight up Israeli propaganda.
OR maybe it’s option 3 where I read the article
Ah, yes, the “laziness and entitlement” of risking becoming a political prisoner for checks notes not wanting to participate in a plausible genocide. Clearly, political prisoners and genocides have nothing to do with Israel.
Sorry. Choose your governments carefully.
Well, she’s certainly part of a minority. The majority of the political parties in Israel are extremely right-wing, not much choice there.
Just play along and then as soon as they give you a gun shoot the highest ranking person present and then yourself. If everyone did that I bet conscription would stop being a thing
Removed by mod
What an utterly stupid statement… She’s refusing to contribute to committing genocide, but that’s not enough for you. You think she should kill herself too…
If everyone refused to contribute to the genocide, then there wouldn’t be one either. There’s no reason young people resisting conscription should be making futile self-sacrifices. She’s already sacrificing her freedom in refusing to participate in a genocide, and spreading awareness and dissidence.
I’d rather be dead than in prison
Would you rather be dead than a limited stay in prison?
It would depend on the time but yes. Anything over a year and I’d seriously consider it
The western world isn’t ready for the active complicity conversation. Yes if you’re put in a situation where you’re the bad guy, you should absolutely do everything you can to disrupt it, even if it means you die in the process. To go along for your own survival is complicity.
Any government/country is actually just a kind of service (you pay taxes and get different goods from it). Every person should have the right to choose the provider of this service (change the country) or completely refrain from it. It means that mandatory military service is no less than slavery. People are not guilty for being born in a country they don’t want to fight for (or that they don’t want to fight at all)
Eh… Close, but they are also a concentration social power (and fundamentally deferred violence), and rights only really exist in the context of social power. You can try and establish your own personal sovereignty but you can be sure that any state that cares to will test that. Sometimes the most you can do is accept that it is able to imprison you or go down fighting, and if you are committed to pacifism the latter is a harder option.
Fighting is the last option. It’s needed when a state becomes usurpated and (unpopular opinion) when the current situation creates an objective high risk for the society or its part and waiting for the election is not really an option (such risk can be exhibited as genocide, severe discrimination or just as a good environment for spreading aggressive ideas. All are dangerous). I think the best thing to do in a democratic society is trying to promote ideas which you think are right so people who agree can join you and you all can have a bigger influence on elections and people who aren’t sure about their views can also find yours appealing. Leave the enforcement part for people who really know what they’re doing and you’re sure they’re doing it for the higher good
You largely can choose the provider of this service, but they will also choose you (or not).
And you can not refrain from the service while being in the community of those that don’t refrain. In practice there are (nearly) no places where the community as a whole chooses to refrain.If you’re in a country with compulsory military service, make yourself interesting for other countries and leave.
The current situation is not the best in my opinion. I think people who don’t agree with it (like me) should try to change it if possible instead of adapting to the situation. Though everyone has the right not to fight. I’m not saying that fighting the regime you don’t like is mandatory
You largely can choose the provider of this service,
Really? I’m from the Middle East, took me fucking ages to “change the provider”.
If you’re in a country with compulsory military service, make yourself interesting for other countries and leave.
Literally not an option for 99% of people.
Yes, most people are not interesting. True for Emi/Imi-gration as well as dating. And in both cases it’s tough to hear.
that‘s a bunch of false equivalences
… so this isn’t really a viable solution.
Well then one largely can’t choose, can one.
unless you’re a US citizen which requires the extra step of completely renouncing your US citizenship or continue paying US taxes (and therefore supporting the military mostly lol) regardless of where you may live in the world
It’s complicated, but not necessarily. The US has a lot of agreements with other countries for you to avoid having to pay taxes for both countries. If you’re living in a country with one of those agreements, you can file with the US to claim you’ve paid taxes to the foreign government.
And the US doesn’t force you to renounce your citizenship, it’s generally other countries that don’t allow dual citizenship; Germany and Denmark for example don’t allow it.
is there something you can point me to that confirms this? i’m not saying you’re wrong but my quick google search said the opposite.
I was wrong about Denmark citizenship, but look here for an explanation of the tax treaties and the FEIE.
And the US doesn’t force you to renounce your citizenship
It does if you don’t want to continue paying US taxes no matter where you live and work.
other countries that don’t allow dual citizenship; Germany and Denmark for example don’t allow it.
I don’t know about Germany, but that hasn’t been true of Denmark for nearly a decade.
I get the feeling that your source is located somewhere between your spine and the backs of your thighs.
I was wrong about Denmark. I did some research last year and apparently what I found was wrong.
But the US has Tax treaties, the FEIE, and the Foreign Tax Credit programs for expats to avoid paying US tax when overseas. But you still need to file with the US.
See here:
I think you are on the right track with your ideals of the world, but I also guess you kinda know that this is not how states operate. Of course there are different types of states, but if you think of democracies, they are also not service providers to their citizens. On the contrary. Democratic states are the abstraction of all the private interests of their citizens. This is what they protect and advance. What arises out of that is that occasionally these interests will suggest a war is what the nation desires.
Democratic states are the abstraction of all the private interests of their citizens.
I am not sure what this means, can you clarify a bit?
A democratic state allows its citizens to pursue their private interests. This is only possible though if this is happening in a legal framework, so that the private interests of one citizen don‘t infringe upon the ones of another. The outcome of this consideration then is the abstraction (the specific applied to the universal) of the free will of the citizens. We call it freedom and justice. Others call it the free market.
What arises out of that is that occasionally these interests will suggest a war is what the nation desires.
I think its pretty wrong to suggest wars happen as a bottom up democratic, abstracted process rather than by the upper class imposing it on us.
I do not believe in “nation’s interest”. That’s the thing that made USA an aggressive state. It also means that the minorities’ opinions are completely rejected. And yk politicians often like to do what people didn’t ask them to do. Democracy is good but the right of choosing the country and freely leaving one must always be there
yes, I also don‘t believe in the nation‘s interest, yet it somehow pretty brutally exists. Something‘s got to grow, somethings got to give.
This is why promoting peace and good ideas is important. If the society is informed, it can change the situation
At first you got to have a good analysis of how society and the economy works. Unfortunately this already is a tricky thing, because not everybody agrees.
Of course not everybody agrees. And we shouldn’t force them to agree. But it doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try to make the world better for everyone. Ik it sounds naive but I’m just getting into all of this. Now I’m not an expert at all. I think you get the main idea. I’m not capable of detailing it very much yet
I think the point they are trying to hint at is that it makes sense to try and understand the emergent forces that culminate in events as horrific as war.
You may “not believe in national interests” but something closely resembling that is a force governing social behavior.
So while it is important to pass moral judgements on these phenomena, you will be more effective at doing so if you can abstractly evaluate them absent moral judgement. Just as you couldn’t coherently understand an ecology if you cannot accept obligate predators as a concept because of the moral implications of predation.
We will all differ in our moral and strategic assessments, but we all cohabit the same world, in which we can all recognize common truths arising from nature.
No don’t like this. Countries aren’t corporations. Last time we tried that it was called fascism.
Idk much about fascism but I don’t think my views are close to it. Afaik it relies on patriotism and nationalities and similar kind of stuff. I don’t believe in any of that. But I do believe that my English is not the best so it can be easy to misunderstand what I say
Fascism is the merging of the corporation and the state. Ignore the bullshit redefinition the US pulled out of their ass so that it wouldn’t apply to themselves. Kind of like how liberalism was redefined from class collaboration (what fascism is about) to being about progressivism.
Corporations should never control any states. It is what an evil corporation is. What I meant is that ultimately a government is a service because it has basically the same idea and that it must never force anyone to obey it. Laws can and should exist (it’s one of the important government’s services after all) but military service is a different thing
You’re either for a country or you’re not. It’s really that simple.
It’s not, mister. It’s really not. People like you make this world more aggressive. I’m not trying to fight you though. And I don’t have the energy or even the knowledge to explain. Nothing is simple. Hopefully at some point you will understand it. Though it probably would be nice to have this world simplified a little ngl
Must be so easy to be on the side of evil these days. You don’t even need to do anything and you win.
thetimes are a murdock owned news network.
Even a broken clock is right at least once a day.
Or said plainly: while you can’t depend on any Murdoch publication to get it right all or even most of the time, you can’t depend on it getting it wrong every time either. Though The Sun is very close to achieving the latter.
Paywall. There are deferments you can get so you don’t have to fight. What’s the full story here?
Concientious objectors are jailed in Israel. This isn’t anything new, see here for another case https://www.amnesty.org.uk/urgent-actions/conscientious-objector-detained-israel
Conscientious objectors are not jailed.
Anyone can just do community service roles instead of the military. Sounds like only people who completely refuse to help out at all are punished.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherut_Leumi
Sherut Leumi (Hebrew: שירות לאומי, lit. ‘National Service’) is an alternative voluntary form of national service in Israel, as opposed to the mandatory military conscription prevalent in the country. It is designed for individuals who do not meet the eligibility criteria for service in the Israel Defense Forces, or who hold conscientious objections to military enlistment. The program primarily was created for religious Jewish girls aged 17 to 24, although it is open to all applicants who cite diverse grounds for their decision.
The majority work in schools, but can also work in places such as special education, administration, hospitals,[3] law, geriatrics, nursing homes, health clinics, teens at risk, internal security, disadvantaged communities, immigrant assistance, and many other organizations. Acceptance is based on an interview via a placement organizations that try to find the youth appropriate skills, interests, and needs.
Although the Israeli army’s Conscience Committee can decide to allow exemption from military service, this is usually granted only to those conscientious objectors who refuse to serve on religious grounds. However, according to the UN Human Rights Committee, no discrimination is permitted “among conscientious objectors on the basis of the nature of their particular beliefs” - i.e. whether they are religious or otherwise. Even though Israeli law does allow for exemption on grounds of pacifism, the army’s Conscience Committee frequently rejects pacifists’ cases. The authorities deny objectors the possibility of performing alternative civilian service. Conscientious objectors in Israel can be convicted of and imprisoned for the same “offence” repeatedly. In 2003, the UN Working Group on Arbitrary Detention said that this practice flouts the rights of conscientious objectors under international human rights standards which prohibit “double jeopardy”.
Your point was already refuted in the article from amnesty I linked.
It is wrong to take anyone, including adult men, and make them into a soldier. There are times when it’s unavoidable, but doing so to commit genocide is obviously always fully wrong.
It’s also by definition slavery.
“Oh you’re born <a something>? Go do this!”
We gotta admit that a large portion of the IDF are just a bunch of indoctrinated teens who had no choice. They are victims of Israel too.
I’m surprised she’s the first woman to be jailed for this… really thought this was more common than that. I would totally do months of even a couple of years of prison or whatever just so not to kill X number of civilian men, women, and children on Gaza… simply because that’s not something I’d be able to live with.
You are leaving out the indoctrination. If you truly despise the enemy and believe you are divinely entitled to do as you please, that helps a lot in not feeling guilt about it.
just a bunch of indoctrinated teens
But yes, I absolutely agree.
See the edit
Ah, I understand.
You’re right, choosing prison over killing innocent civilians requires first understanding what is going on, something which indoctrination is meant to hinder. I think what I meant to say is that it’s weird not more people have been able to escape this indoctrination and choose prison instead of service. Then again, Israel has been successful at this genocide thanks to their incredible propaganda machine, so I shouldn’t underestimate the effect it has on people.
Agreed, i just think it is very difficult for us comparatively free thinking westerners with access to largely uncensored information and freedom of thought, looking at the situation from the outside. I think we often can’t really empathize with how pervasive a concerted propaganda effort like that must be, being literally raised on the kool-aid.
Which isn’t to say we are not indoctrinated ourselves, perhaps more low key
us comparatively free thinking westerners
For myself, I grew up with the Islam kool-aid in an Islam-majority country and though the journey was troublesome, I very much managed in the end to shed religion and tradition off my shoulders and unlearn all the crap I was indoctrinated to believe in, including layers of anti-semitism. I felt like I lived in a similar kind of propaganda machine and managed to find my way out. If I can do it, hopefully, anyone can do it given the right opportunities, support, and time.
It’s literally his first sentence…
See edit
He acknowledged they’re victims. Really don’t understand the point you’re trying to make here.
That they can’t know what their thought process would be like, without having been raised in such indoctrination. I think we all wish we’d do the right thing, but statistically few do. Propaganda is not the only explanation, but it’s a pretty good one.
There’s probably more people not taking it but they don’t want the public to know
You might be right. I found this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omer_Goldman
I see what you’re going for but you wouldn’t have that prospective if you’ve seen even a fraction of what the IDF has been putting out.
They’re in on the evil, and they revel in it.
Hasn’t it always been young people who make the bulk of the armies?
Sofia Orr is likely to become the first woman since then to be jailed for refusing military service, but believes it is ‘wrong to take children and make them into soldiers’
And she’s right.
Wow straight to jail with her!
Israelis have had conscription for years.
Suddenly she sees what the fuck is going on when some skin is required to play the game.
IDF Females don’t get put in combat roles.
She could have nodded her head and be complicit in Genocide behind a desk.
But she’d rather be in Prison than do the Holocaust.
I’d be happier probably dying for a cause I hate fir a couple of years rather than rotting in a military prison for the rest of eternity.
Yeah and killing other people? Sure thing buddy.
