Source: https://linux-hardware.org/?view=os_display_server
Reporting is done by users who voluntarily upload their system specs via
# hw-probe -all -upload
Reporting is done by users who voluntarily upload their system specs via
# hw-probe -all -uploadSo not skewed at all…
Why would it be skewed? What would be the cause for a subset of linux users, that upload hardware probes with extraneous information about their display server, to skew the extraneous data?
by default, your content is all rights reserved, the most restrictive license possible. AI trains on “all rights reserved” content all the time. You really think adding a CC-BY-NC is gonna do anything?
Because a huge portion of the people willing to do this are already on Wayland, but I believe there exists an even larger percentage on X that are not submitting any data.
And another commenter said:
We’re just left to do armchair psychology about the type of people who would submit data to this site. So the numbers are effectively useless.
Because a huge portion of the people willing to do this are already on Wayland, but I believe there exists an even larger percentage on X that are not submitting any data.
What is the basis for that assumption?
And another commenter said:
We’re just left to do armchair psychology about the type of people who would submit data to this site. So the numbers are effectively useless.
So because one cannot know which type of people submit data to the site it should be disregarded? That’s basically saying any poll or questionnaire with anonymous yet unique answers are invalid. That’s a pretty bad argument.
So because one cannot know which type of people submit data to the site it should be disregarded? That’s basically saying any poll or questionnaire with anonymous yet unique answers are invalid. That’s a pretty bad argument.
This is basically a survey or poll. You want people to provide you with data about what they’re running. To get an accurate view of the entire population you need a representative and randomized sample. If you’re relying entirely on self-reported data you’re not going to be getting a reliably randomized subset of people. You’ll get people who are motivated to report their usage to a third party. That can lead to persistent biases in the data.
It may be that Wayland use is being under represented because the people reporting want to show that “X11 is still king!” Or it could be that this website is shared frequently with certain user groups (e.g. in some arch (btw) forum or something) and so you’re getting a skew towards that population and away from the whole.
We don’t know who these users are and we can’t “offset” for those factors. And the data isn’t reliably randomized so it’s subject to those biases whether we know about them or not.
Though as another person pointed out the trend itself may be of some interest if the population being polled is consistent. Though I doubt anybody suspected that Wayland use is NOT increasing?
Anonymous polls are indeed useless for several reasons.
Man I spent 4 paragraphs saying what you just said in one sentence. 😅
err, why? actually it can be skewed against wayland(wayland users tend to be more security aware), and why the suprise, KDE, GNOME are wayland from the get go, steam deck too, hyprland and sway etc
It can skew either way equally. We’re just left to do armchair psychology about the type of people who would submit data to this site. So the numbers are effectively useless.
You’re discounting the trend here. Assuming the methodology is consistent, over a short time we’re seeing a noticeable change, bias or not.
I’m not actually. Does anybody doubt that wayland use is increasing? Distros have increasingly been making it the default. I’d be surprised if use weren’t increasing. In fact it might be under-represented in this data depending on whether all distros are being accurately represented or not.
But the change in the numbers is not useless since the psychology of the Wayland users vs. x11 didn’t change
That seems probable but was there any doubt that Wayland use is increasing? Wayland has been changing to the default distro by distro. The only reason this is “news” is because somebody has claimed that “Wayland usage has overtaken X11”.
Wait Steam Deck now runs Desktop mode in Wayland?
plasma do, unless valve changed that
On launch Steam Deck had it’s desktop/Plasma session set to X11, hence my question
Do you have a better way of measuring it?
In what direction would voluntary self-reporting of all system specs skew the display server statistic (and why)?Its a pretty good survey and has a good sample size. Statistics is hard. I won’t take the criticism too seriously.
Do you have a better way of measuring it?
No better way of measuring doesn’t mean this is a good way of measuring.
What way do you imagine would be more precise?
What way do you imagine would be more precise?
Unavoidable analytics, apparently. Yay?
Well do you want useful stats or not /s
But seriously, a lot of opt-in (that never get opted in to) data is insanely useful for developers, but it has such a bad stigma that we never get anywhere close to the amount of usefulness a larger dataset could provide.
Tbf a lot of that stigma has to do with trust violation.
I like the way kde does it. On first install it gives a slider with how much analytics you want to send. I just do all of it because I trust KDE, but it’s nice that it asks you. They probably have some pretty good data.
A method that attempts to collect data from a randomized or representative population rather than relying on self-report.
The fact that you need consent to get this data would make a randomized approach impossible.
Could always go for opt-out instead opt-in metrics. Fedora had some recent controversy with it.
Yes. It just may be possible that accurate poll data on such things isn’t possible.
Steam hardware survey but that will skew towards gamers. That said, it would be a good indicator on how compatible Wayland is.
Yeah, this is pretty textbook selection bias.
I imagine people who care about this sort of thing are more likely to report it. And people who care about this sort of thing are also more likely to be early adopters and go through the effort of switching to Wayland.
The way to get a more random sample is not something I want (built-in, automatic telemetry by default). So I’m fine with having skewed data for something like this.
respects to “unknown” and tty users.
fuck display servers. All my homies love ASCII display tech.
kmsdrm is tty, but not ascii. Or fbdev.
links -gis best browser in Gentoo Minimal CDFramebuffers and TUIs: are we a joke to you?
mmmm lack of proper double buffering on i3wm my beloved
Seeing unknown: “What’s he building in there? …we have a right to know.”
That’s Canonical building Mir 2.
LET MEEEE INNNNNN
There’s Twin.
I will add sone more once i’m home.
i like this, this is good.
Give me sixel apps, I want a sixel destop with hardware video decoding
Crazyy!
Btw I am XWayland free since today!
I have a list of recommended apps here
Some apps need environment variables:
Qt:
- qpwgraph
GTK
- GPU Screen recorder, I guess
Electron
- Nextcloud Flatpak
- MullvadVPN RPM
- Signal Flatpak
- (Element, I switched to the Webapp in Librewolf)
- Freetube Flatpak
You can use
xlsclients -lto detect apps using XWayland.Some may even want to run apps through XWayland on purpose, like KeepassXC for Clipboard access or autotype. Lets see how long it takes to implement all the needed protocols.
/circlejerk
flatpak bad lmao
Flatpak saved my ass when I super broke my Arch upgrade but didn’t have time to fix it before work. I ran using only Flatpak apps for like 6 weeks because they were the only thing that worked
Decent use case. You do use snapshots now, right?
Trying to set up snapshots is what broke my system. Not sure what the issue was exactly, but BTRFS was reporting a different amount of used space than there actually was, and my snapshots started recursively backing up until everything died
Next time I install Linux I’m going to use Ext4 and snapshots out the gate
That’s weird. I’ve had zero issues with BTRFS and I have both compression and snapshots.
Have you looked at bcachefs, by the way?
Honestly, I’m kind of tired of complicated stuff. I just want a fs that works and is easy to do recovery operations on when it doesn’t work. My SSD is big enough
Funny. True, on superstable but also super unstable systems, having separated apps makes most sense.
Not actually on rpm-ostree systems, as these have the best and most solid package management.
Let me know when wine finally gets ported to Wayland!
True, if I use bottles Flatpak as a GTK wayland app, the actual apps still use XWayland.
Not using any Wine apps though.
Yeah, games are the big reason I jumped ship and I’m pretty excited about the ongoing work porting Wine to Wayland. I’m also too broke to upgrade from my Nvidia card so the efforts improving Nvidia on Wayland are greatly appreciated.
Gotta save up for an education somehow.😄
Yes, “just buy new hardware” is not a solution.
But dont let some news fool ya. NVIDIA already won the AI race, so their “new open source driver” will only benefit their newly sold products
Yeah, thankfully I’ve got a turing card (2000 +)which is said to be the cutoff for the open source drivers.
Voluntarily uploaded data? This feels like that old linux user count site.
I will run that probe on my machines to contribute, though.
For completeness, we should review the involuntarily uploaded data as well.
Don’t forget the voluntarily not uploaded data! That can’t be left out.
Is this because of me?
Here’s a smaller sample size (2417 people at the time of writing) but all you need to do is fill in your details on the website: https://www.gamingonlinux.com/users/statistics/
X is at 66% and Wayland is at 33% for GamingOnLinux.
Wayland has a mouse capture bug in proton / wine. It particularly seems to be an issue in FPS games. That may contributing to slower adoption for Linux gamers.
Works fine here, on mutter with mesa. Looks mostly like a KDE bug.
Speaking of Valve, they probably have numbers for Wayland vs X too, unfortunately they don’t seem to publish this statistic in their survey.
Valve is difficult. On the one hand they have their own Wayland compositor with gamescope. Which works by launching an explicitly configured XWayland session for the game.
And on the other hand there’s Steam, which is still an X application.
And on top of that are stupid Steam Input bugs that only happen when you try to launch a game with gamescope.
On the Steam Deck in gaming mode Gamescope is the main compositor which launches two XWayland sessions. I guess one for Steam and one for the game.
It’s bizarre.
Finally, it’s the year of the other desktop!
I switched to Wayland the moment my distro went moved to KDE Plasma 6 because according to my logic: if things are going to be broken and I’m going to adjust to them anyways, I might as well do it all at once: shock therapy style.
Plasma 6 broke a lot of my desktop customization, but that is to be expected. And Wayland? It has been surprisingly okay. I am experiencing some keyboard-related problems that I can’t even begin to track down (sometimes the keyboard flat out refuses to work for certain programs, sometimes it’s the numpad). However, I am not sure if it’s really related to Wayland, so I’m withholding judgement.
How are you enjoying EndeavourOS?
… I actually use Arch. Sorry.
But really, I would have gone with EndeavourOS (instead of Arch) if it were not for my friend who really strongly advocated for Arch (even installing it for me—or rather, converting my Manjaro install into an Arch one).
If I’ve had any regrets in my Linux journey, it’s choosing Manjaro instead of EndeavourOS as my introduction to Arch-based distros.
… I actually use Arch. BTW.
FTFY
Swing and a miss! Well, I can take solace in the fact that 99.9% of the packages you are using are in EndeavourOS too. So, I was mostly right. :)
I also wish we could replace Manjaro with a green themed EndeavourOS. So many people could be saved the pain. Manjaro is the next biggest Linux honeypot after OpenOffice ( which exists only to ruin the experience for people that should have used LibreOffice instead ).
Converting Manjaro to Arch in place is a labour of love. I have done it myself and it is was more steps than I expected it to be. Worth it though. Good friend.
If Manjaro doesn’t work for you, doesn’t mean it doesn’t work for everybody
Leave our sacred amazing green Manjaro alone!
EndeavourOS is crap btw
And LibreOffice has terrible UI, even if it’s feature-rich. Onlyoffice is the way to go
Alright, enough unpopular opinions for today.
Once installed, EndeavourOS is literally just Arch except for perhaps a couple of optional utilities and some theming. Even the kernel is the same. So you think Arch is crap btw?
More recent EOS installs do use Dracut. So, I guess there is one difference now ( unless you use dracut on Arch ).
I do not mind the look of Manjaro. That is not my issue with it.
I am fine with OnlyOffice as well. It is OpenOffice that nobody should use ( it is literally just an ancient version of LibreOffice at this point ).
So, other than saying Arch is crap, none of your opinions from that post are unpopular with me.
Yeah, dracut and some small differences here and there just make it more complicated to no gain, and I just don’t comprehend why would someone who installs Endeavour wouldn’t just install Arch and not depend on some random distribution that does little beyond easy set up (which has recently been shown as problematic when Endeavour team dropped ARM support).
Arch is alright btw. It has its audience, and it serves them well. Besides, it’s an independent, but highly popular distro, which I value. It’s snappy, configurable, well-documented, and no-fuss.
Besides, it would be weird to use Manjaro and hate its upstream. Though Mint people can experience such vibes…
I have been pretty happy with Dracut and have moved a few other systems to it. I used the instructions in the Arch wiki for how to do that of course. Dracut ( even in EOS ) comes from the Arch repos. Takes a couple minutes.
EOS only moved to Dracut recently so only my newest system would be using it ( rolling updates do not change that kind of thing ). I have all my systems using it now though, including “real” Arch.
I am less enthusiastic about systemd-boot though it does seem faster. It is just part of my bias against systemd.
Regardless, I could certainly move any of my systems to whatever I want. Installing EOS and then migrating away from Dracut would be faster than installing Arch to begin with. Of course, just starting with EOS Galileo ( before the move to Dracut ) works just as well. A simple pacman -Syu brings you to the same place as a newer install.
Honestly, uninstalling eos-hooks from EOS to get Arch is faster than installing yay in Arch to get the AUR ( yay and paru are both in EOS by default ).
Well, I can take solace in the fact that 99.9% of the packages you are using are in EndeavourOS too. So, I was mostly right. :)
Yeah, also I think EndeavourOS and Arch moved to Plasma 6 at around the same time too? I tried holding off the update to Plasma 6 for a few days but finally took the update on March 12.
I also wish we could replace Manjaro with a green themed EndeavourOS. Manjaro is the next biggest Linux honeypot after OpenOffice.
I think with enough faffing around customizing things in KDE Plasma, I think a green-themed EndeavourOS is doable. Would I recommend it? Not really, lol! From what I’ve seen, I like EndeavourOS’ default theming.
It’s just a shame EndeavourOS isn’t as known as Manjaro (at least during the time I first jumped into running Linux as a daily driver). But then again, with Manjaro shitting the bed becoming more known, I hope EndeavorOS can take the place of Manjaro as the Arch-based distro for newbies.
Converting Manjaro to Arch in place is a labour of love. I have done it myself and it is was more steps than I expected it to be. Worth it though. Good friend.
Oh yeah, I was there with him when he was doing it. I can’t do any help other than cheering him on, and to have another eye on the screen making sure he doesn’t make any stupid mistakes in the process. At few points, I reminded him of the fact that I’ve backed up my files, and if things really get FUBAR, we can just do a clean install and restore the files from backup.
EOS uses the Arch repos. So, EOS and Arch got KDE 6 together since whatever is in the Arch repos hits them both at the same time.
Arch people REALLY hate Manjaro
-happy Manjaro user
Yeah, I’m sorry. I’m biased against it, thanks to my experience with it.
And in my case, I kinda don’t like Endeavour OS. I installed it on my laptop to try it out a couple mouths ago. It looked to me like a convenient no nonsense installer for Arch with some nice defaults, then you stumble on their custom update/mirror manager nonsense. Then you want to use a printer and realize they left CUPS disabled, as if to give you an “excuse” to use systemctl. Then if you want to use Samba, you need to go out of your way to find a default config file. I’ve had to jump through more hoops and dealt with more quirky nonsense than with Manjaro stable on that distro.
It’s like it doesn’t know who this is meant for. People who want their hand held through a GUI for something basic as updating their system, or people who love writing their own config file for everything.
Might as well install Arch, really.
-Other happy Manjaro user
I just installed EOS a couple of minutes ago and realized what you are saying.
So, during install, you did not click on the box that says “firewall” ( selected by default ) and you did not click on the box that says “Printing support” ( not selected by default ). To you, that means that EOS does not know who it is targeting?
These seem like sensible defaults. Regular users should use a firewall. Many systems will not connect to a printer.
Clicking clearly presented checkboxes ( or leaving them as default ) at the point the installer asks you to seems pretty friendly. It is certainly a lot more friendly than having to know what pacman -S is and whatever the hell CUPS is ( I know what it is but “printing” seems a bit more newb friendly ).
Not setting stuff up at install time and then complaining that it is not installed the way you want seems….”odd”. Also, the SAMBA packages for EOS come from the Arch repos. The experience adding packages post install is literally identical between the two distros.
This is not a very compelling indictment of EOS.
I’m sure EndeavourOS is perfectly fine for the people who work on it and their core user base. That’s not my issue. It’s still happily running on my laptop. I just keep on seeing people say “Don’t use Manjaro, use EndevourOS! It’s much better.” But your average computer user would lose their shit at having to deal with those ^ issues. “You just had to enable it at installation if you wanted printing. You didn’t see the checkbox?! Oh mah gaaa” …Seriously? It’s not a checkbox to turn it back on if you miss it and should be opt-out to begin with. Are you going to tell me CUPs is a significant memory/storage drain and a gaping vulnerability in a residential network? If one’s not familiar with Linux, CUPS, pacman and Systemd it’s a huge headache for most people to get this working.
I just think that EndeavourOS shouldn’t be presented as a Manjaro alternative for your average person, when it’s an opinionated Arch-based distro with spotty defaults aimed at somewhat experienced Linux users that want nitty-gritty control over their system. (Users which, again, might as well be using vanilla Arch if that’s fun or important to them) And it has some weird update/mirror manager that prevented me from just using pacman to update my system at one point and I had to figure out whatever it was they wanted me to use. Never had this kind of crap happen to me in Manjaro. Nor was printing disabled by default. Nor were network shares hard to get working.
Exactly! That is my neverending conundrum with people going for Endeavour.
Like, why not Arch at this point?
Thanks for your voice!
Also endeavour is not really arch with a graphical installer, or that is what I’ve seen at least.
I tried to help someone once that installed endevouros and for some reason their kernel parameters were being overwritten every time they updated, turns out that was an issue because endeavour installed dracut instead of mkinitcpio by default? I don’t know wtf was that. They ended up switching to arch after that lol.
Also their /efi directory was set as read-only to the root user, meaning that to even see if their kernel parameters were there they needed sudo lol
I just switched to Endeavour from Manjaro when I upgraded my hardware, and every update changes the default kernel on the selection screen. I go in and edit the file to change the default from lts to the latest kernel, and the next update switches it right back. It’s maddening, i could do Arch, and I’ve done it on other machines I just don’t have the time for that level of customization. I already waste enough time tinkering.
I would rather have arco over endeavour.
Same
But Manjaro is king
How does Garuda fit on the Arch spectrum?
Kinda hated, but not as much as Manjaro.
Manjaro guy’s perspective - nicer than Endeavour, at least there is some functionality that is actually useful and justifies it being a separate distro.
Normally, Arch folks hate Chaotic-AUR as part of Garuda, the bloat™, and the fact it’s heavily designed with hypergaming styling, which is not only not pleasing for many, but adds extra hurdles on the way to ricing.
Cool!
As someone who switched to wayland way back when sway was dominant…? About time.
Every now and then I think ‘OK, this time I surely should be able to switch over to Wayland!’
And there’s always one application or use case that stops me.
Yeah, I’m on nvidia which hasn’t helped either…
Yeah, had a rtx 2060 and sidegraded to an intel arc a750 just to avoid the nvidia xwayland issues.
For What application you face issue? I’m curious as XWayland should provide backward compatibility.
Electron applications are notorious and prolific, and resolutions are very specific to versions and details of the program’s build process.
Steam can be a big old flashy boi
+1, I have huge issues with Electron apps running on native Wayland. Fractional scaling doesn’t work, when I maximise an app it’s not covering my whole screen, same happens when manually resizing windows. What’s worse some apps do scale button positions, ex. native Discord, so when I click a button, something else to the left gets clicked. XWayland works fine though
Except it also has said issue. Additionally it causes my VPN connection to drop when watching streams, and does noise cancellation despite that option being disabled.
That’s bizarre, i have no such issues on hyprland or sway.
what DE are you using? Are they running in native wayland mode?
Isn’t there some way to force Electron to use Wayland?
There are multiple ways depending on the version of electron the app was built against
Same I want to move over so bad. It’s so smooth and the animations feel much nicer but there is always a deal breaker issue that sends me back to x11 within a few hours.
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I wonder how representative that is of actual software used. I would imagine hardware probes are run from installers and live systems quite frequently. I would certainly not expect several percentage points of “neither” in practical settings.
“Neither” are Linux systems that don’t use a display server, i.e. CLI only systems.
Yeah, but when was the last time you decided to upload hardware device data for a root server to some hardware survey? That is something almost exclusively done by the kind of people who want to show off their system in some way.
Counterpoint: OS market share from the corresponding BSD-hardware site:
Four kinds of blue in that graph.
And green. All associated with the more popular variants pfsense, opnsense, truenas, and freebsd.
Data truly is beautiful
Especially on servers I make sure to attend in the software packages survey. Just so that the holy-gods and kings of maintainers are aware of me, the peasant running old packages.
No yield saya. I’m sorry.
I would guess not very representative at all. I don’t believe wayland usage is higher, like at all. Maybe in a limited setting like NEW installs of the most popular distros, just because they default to it. But the existing install base? No way.
This is a graph of recent reports (one year time frame). The total reports from all time are over 70% X11.
But since the statistics are based on one time uploads, there’s no way to know how many of those systems are still in use, or still run X11.
Yeh, I’ll wait until the bugs are ironed out and my distro (mint) determines it’s stable. No need to start asking for troubles when everything is working smoothly.
Same. I don’t see why people need to argue about it or make a conscious decision about it anyway.
(My distro determined it was ready to use a while ago, so I’ve been switched over for a long time now. Indeed it’s working fine, and I think I hardly even notice the difference.)
Then there’s ppl like me: dual 4k with Wayland on Nvidia in Gnome with VRR. Hoorah!
Just waiting for explicit sync and I will be complete.
Which nvidia, if I may ask
Obviously a fictitious one.
He’s only the second person I’ve seen to claim working dual monitor on wayland with Nvidia. All my attempts have lasted 5 mins max before something drove me back to X11.
Same, hence my extreme disbelief.
I have three monitors and a NVIDIA GPU. I’ve only been able to get them to work properly on Wayland.
Dunno, I used to run 3 monitors until I got an ultra wide, now I’m down to 2. Never had any issues getting the displays to work in either. It was mostly graphical glitches and screen tearing that drove me back to X11.
X11 has been mostly solid for me. Wonder if Wayland would be worth messing with.
To temper your expectations you’ll likely have some problems. But you’ll have the ability in future to make use of new display technologies, like VRR and HDR
Glad to see it finally happening. Wayland has been an amazing experience for several years
