Manufacturers say that installing a couple of 300-watt panels will give a saving of up to 30% on a typical household’s electricity bill. With an outlay of €400-800 and with no installation cost, the panels could pay for themselves within six years.
In Spain, where two thirds of the population live in apartments and installing panels on the roof requires the consent of a majority of the building’s residents, this DIY technology has obvious advantages.
With solar balconies, no such consent is required unless the facade is listed as of historic interest or there is a specific prohibition from the residents’ association or the local authority. Furthermore, as long as the installation does not exceed 800 watts it doesn’t require certification, which can cost from €100 to €400, depending on the area.
As with all solar power systems, balcony power only works in daylight and a battery storage system can add at least €1,000 to the installation cost.
Vernetta says the vertical surface area of cities is far greater than that of the roofs and that, in Spain, balcony panels benefit more than roof panels from the low winter sun.
Cities such as Helsinki are already experimenting with buildings with solar panel cladding.
‘If 1.5m Germans have them there must be something in it’
Yep, an impressive marketing campaign.
Honestly, I’m not saying they are bad. Depends on location and angle.
But the tittle is total rubbish.
30% locally generated power is good.
Agreed.
As I say, it’s just the idea of 1.5m can’t be wrong that is wrong. More so coming from a newspaper that depends on the success of marketing for its revenue.
Approx 2% of a population can definitely be sold a crock of shit if the marketing is good. Just look at the numbers who voted Trump in the US or Reform in the UK.
Honestly, if solar Balconies produced 30% of the nations’ electricity, then it would be very impressive.
But while Germany producing 54% clean energy is bloody impressive. Honestly, 30% is likely to be solar as a whole, not just balcony solar.
The number of locations where the low sun would be inline to balconies is limited. Due to urban conditions. Mainly only higher flats over the average city line and rural areas.
And while in those higher or rural flats. The low sun may shine the correct way 30% of the day (if the panels can tilt). For that to generate 30% of the flats use over a whole year. Would take a pretty big balcony. The best panels available commercially nowadays are <300w per m2. So most balconies would have 600 to 1200w max. The whole side of the flat would likely be 4x to 6x times that.
I’d guess it’s still worth doing. (def the whole side of the building thing) Mainly because the panels are so freaking cheap atm. It’s the cost of bats and volt/current/charge management that would be the greatest cost part. But for most users. 30% from balcony alone is not realistic.
I, in just about every case, give no attention to norm-based arguments. We as a species on a whole, proportionally, keep doing foolish shit all the time.
But it was after reading your comment that I noticed there was a time that many Germans were either proponents of or tolerating (not all of them absolutely; there were rebels) some extremely bad things. Some 85 years ago.
Did you just seriously bring up Hitler in a balcony solar panel discussion?
Just what are you try to imply here
“The beauty of the solar balconies is they are flexible, cheap and plug straight into the domestic network via a converter,
How the fuck does that work??
they have a “micro inverter” you literally just plug them into a socket in your house.
that’s so dangerous…
why? they put around 600w max. there are plenty of appliances in a home that put a higher load than that.
because they backfeed into the grid, and because that means you have live male plugs.
they are not live. before they feed the grid they need to synchronize to the grid’s phase
-they detect AC from the grid
-they sync the phase to it
-start feeding
That’s so cool!
the panels could pay for themselves within six years.
Hard pass. I don’t trust it will work in 6 years. So, it’s not really an investment.
Average solar panels are warrantied to give 100% power for 25 years. After that, they still work but at roughly an 80% rate, with a small fall off each year.
A 6 year payoff is an excellent investment. I’d gladly hang something with zero negatives on a balcony that just made me money for the rest of my life.
If it replaced my need for a grid, I would.
It won’t, but the above replaces about 30% of power costs for life for these residents, and pays off in 6 years.
Thats still very good.
you won’t get that from a balcony panel, that’s for sure.
honestly, off-grid solar systems meant to drive a house are a pain. you need something to provide a steady sine wave from the DC of the solar and batteries, and usually the best way to do that is the grid. if you want to be off-grid only some times, you need even more equipment to be able to properly synchronise when connecting.
With the hell I continue to go through having made spectacularly bad choices in building out my solar, I get the trepidation. But my starting point was the grid being unreliable. If yours isn’t, great! That’s not the case everywhere, and freezing for a week changed my mind about the utility of being on-grid when I can have far more control for less money.
“Better than what I’ve been getting” is a low bar, but adequate for investigating other options. I’ve not correctly balanced everything yet. Still, I don’t just lose power because of weather hundreds of miles away, just my own inadequacy at research.
They don’t drop from 100% to 80% year 26. It’s a gradual but accelerating slide, with 80% still warranted at the end of the timeframe.
That doesn’t make PV a bad investment; overselling it puts people in the sceptic camp, though, which is what we’re seeing in this thread.
Its a general estimate of viability, yes. I did point out that panels drop off a bit every year, but it looks like that wasn’t clear if you feel like it needs a correction.
Every comment in here when I posted was skeptical about solar, with no stated reason. I added some general data about actual panels. If you want to add more up to date info, please do.
To be clear, I’m only wanting to clarify because I already live off solar. As such, I find it important to provide the correct information about expected panel longevity in general … getting into the weeds about things like panel type and brand tend to make people’s eyes glaze over while already skeptics, which doesn’t sell a lot of people on the virtues.
The important takeaway is, yes, this is mature tech that continues to evolve. There’s going to be loss each year, as there will be with LFP, so both can de viewed as depreciating assets when ignoring the cost savings accrued over time; however, price trends with both technologies suggest (thus far) that picking up an extra 25% of capacity in 20 years is not only doable but will actually lower the lifetime kWh cost of the system.
The real ongoing cost by then is going to be a few inverters.
Solar panels have been out for a long time, they definitely last more than 6 years. You can easily look this up.
The warranties are usually 25 years at this point.
Maybe do some research instead of using your feelings to make every decision, you’ll get a better result.
I don’t think it really matters how long the warranty is, when the manufacturer is EGHIGXXJKNB from Amazon.
Then maybe don’t buy from EGHIGXXJKNB?
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Not him but here are a few links:
https://www.anker.com/blogs/solar/how-reliable-is-solar-energy
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_panel
TL;DR: Most rigid panel manufacturers provide a 25 year warranty. Performance degradation ranges from 1% to 4% per year depending on the material used, with thin flexible panels being the worst.
Oh look, a link to a solar company. Shocked.
You can simple google it. It’s considered common knowledge at this point.
Find me something showing 25 year old solar panels that still deliver 80% or higher output.
Most haven’t been around for 25 years yet, but here’s a study on german panels at 16-20 years showing they’re just fine.
Erm as he is talking about what the panel providers are willing to warrantee. Where else would you expect to see it.
Give me a week and I can go get the warrantee paperwork for my panels. But I’m net heading out to them till after Xmas. But it’s 20 years at something like 85% of original performance.
If you are expecting to see test data. Well, honestly, other than manufacturers. The older technologies really were not as reliable. The same manufacturing techniques that have reduced the price of panels over the last few years. Are the reason UV damage etc will take longer to effect them. Hence, the long warrantees. 70-90s panels used to suffer from UV fogging over the diodes, so did not expect to last as long. But even they tended to last about 10 years.
As I pointed out else where. It is not the panels that are likely to fail in 6 years. (unless damaged) But the electronics adjusting to battery or AC voltages for use. They tend to come with much shorter warrantees. But if fitted well, are also much easier to replace.
The investment is the number of less people that will die in the climate catastrophe. Stop looking at just the $$. That’s insane.
If you think this is going to help climate change at all, then you have been seriously made led by corporations trying to sell you shitty solar panels. insane is that you think a solar panel will have any microscopic impact.
1.5 m Germans using them definitely has an impact. It doesn’t solve the climate crisis on its own obviously but you can say that about any and all measures combating climate change
There is no impact. The technology just isn’t there yet. Mostly because it’s being held back by oil companies.
So, on one hand, if it becomes a profitable business, maybe it will get more support.
But on the other hand, this is just filling landfills with more junk that is designed to sell, not be a solution.
There is no impact. The technology just isn’t there yet. Mostly because it’s being held back by oil companies.
Okay, I need a citation on that. How does big oil control solar panel technology?
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Usually claims require proof and not thoughts
Do you expect a fridge to work in six years? Seems you’re applying an unreasonable standard to solar in a vacuum.
Honestly, it depends on what you spend. Many high-end fridges in Europe come with 10 year manufacturer’s warrantee. And EU law requires manufacturers to provide parts for 10 years on such goods. So honestly yeah.
That said, cheaper ones tend to make it past 5 (mine is 8 years old) without maintenance. And if I had to replace it 3 times in 10 years, it would still be cheaper than getting the expensive ones. (worse for the environment)
As for solar panels. I am about to replace the one on my boat. It is well over 5 years old and still works. I’m replacing it because I can get 2 410w huge panels for way less than the 100w one cost the past boat owner.
6 years really is nothing for a solar panel. My new ones came with a 20-year warrantee. (something like 85% after 20 year). High-end ones are better.
The 2 MPPTs are likely to need replacing first. But again, 6 years may be well beyond their warrantee. But is reasonable to expect. The lifepo4 battery should just manage 10 years. Before losing significant storage. But that is with the BMS set to keep them from 10-90% charge.
So no, 6 years is a very reasonable time to expect from solar.
EDIT: In a house setup. It is the inverter that is most likely to need replacing. But again, 6 years is more than likely for a quality one.
On my boat, the vast majority of the equipment is 12v, as it’s just more efficient. But the cheap (very) Chinese inverter did not last a year. So yeah they can be cheap crap if you don’t get good ones. But we don’t really use it much. So haven’t bother replacing it yet. Will do so this summer.
We agree for the most part … people unaware of how an off-grid DC setup operates fixate on the parts least likely to fail (that was me, as well, when I first started looking into things). MPPT, fuse panels and various step converters should be the anticipated replacements. They’re inexpensive compared to wholesale PV and LFP upgrades.
Grins, actually My MPPT cost more than the panels. £70 for each panel plus £33 shipping the pair. The 2 30a MPPTs £90 each.
But when fitting to a house it’s likely to be mounting by a pro that is the bigger cost. So yeah, way easier to replace the MPPTs etc then climb on a roof.
Fortunately, with a narrow boat a can do it all myself with just the risk of wet feet ;)
I’m in that in-between use where it’s a tool van. So I have acreage for solar on the roof and 1200W. I negotiated a remarkably reasonable rate with myself for the install.
Really great day. When you can screw yourself.
;>
Do you expect a fridge to work in six years?
Yes, I expect household appliances to last at least a decade. My current fridge is from 2004, and whilst it will probably need replacing soon, 20 years is not an unreasonable run.
I.can’t speak for these devices but rooftop solar is known to be pretty reliable. Our system is nearly 8 years old with zero - and I mean zero maintenance. We really should get the dust blown out of the inverter.
In Spain, living a the bottom of an apartment urbanization well, I get 2 hours of direct sunlight a day. Some people are luckier and get all the morning sun, while others get all the afternoon sun.
Installing panels may still be troublesome, since the urbanization has a requirement of “unified look”… so I’m afraid it would mean either everyone, or no one, installing a panel, and they better look all the same (had an issue with additional balcony railing, optional but single design allowed).
Belgium, which outlawed plug-in solar devices over fears of having unregistered systems feeding into the grid, will lift its ban.
Why the fuck is that a fear?!?
it’s for the safety of people working on the grid. solar panels in general have either to be isolated from the grid or disconnect if the grid is down. they are not allowed to spill into the grid if the grid has no power.
I dont understand. These people can just install more switches to solve this problem, right?
We were just dumb before and thought power was unidirectional. Now we have evolved into a decentralized grid. So we just need to add another switch to cut off power coming out of every room, building, etc. Right?
That seems like the obvious long-term, safest solution.
We have regulations here in Germany (EU wide even if I am not mistaken). The solar inverters used are required to shut off within I think 200ms of the 50hz grid power going down. The inverters sold here can’t output anything without grid power being detected on the AC output.
Why is everyone in this thread making assumptions and spreading fear instead of actually looking up how it works?
And in addition to them backfeeding into the grid , they bypass all the fuses and GFCI protections your house might have and effectively require the use of a suicide cord. That part of a plug should never be providing power, only using it.
Because back feeding the grid means the power company can’t shut the power down to work on a line. It requires coordinating everyone that might have something like this to unplug it. Rooftop installations add controllers to only supply when grid power is on, or to disconnect the house from the grid. Same thing when you add a generator inlet you’re supposed to also add a grid disconnect.
You’re sure these kits in Germany dont have that check in place? If I know Germans, it does.
I live in Germany, and I can assure you no such check exists. I have one of these systems (although I don’t plug mine into the grid, I store power in batteries and use it)
I’m not sure how the electricians protect themselves, I can only assume that they measure for voltage on the line after disconnecting from the grid, and then search for the culprits. Generally speaking any service providers inform residents well beforehand about outages, and there might be fines if you hold back work? I haven’t looked into it, perhaps someone else has more info.
The system can only feed into your house line if there is an external 230V 50Hz power net working. The moment the net goes down there will be no power from your micro inverter to your house. It requires power to work and a stable 50 Hz similar to most bigger inverters.
If you combine a power station (battery) with the inverter, this battery might give you a 230V outlet with stable 50 Hz. But this is not the one you should plug back into your house (would require an unsafe cable).
Overall, lots of fear and wrong information in this thread about safety. There is a DIN norm for all of this and the current 800W limit exists to keep your power line from melting in the walls in the most extreme cases.
