Calling for Russians to shoot Putin while condemining “political violins” when Trump got shot will never not be funny.
You know what’s even more fucked up? Europe, Australia and even Ukraine sent troops also to murder Iraqis and Afghans then bragged how they did things for the US
That certainly sounds like Europe, Australia, and Ukraine.
Ukraine is in Europe… Also, Europe is not a monolith, i. e. France was strongly against the invasion of Iraq to the point some crazy amis renamed fries as freedom fries. Jesus, that’s the equivalent to confusing arabs with Ottomans… That’s some double standards right there.
I’m aware that Ukraine is in Europe, I was responding to their comment in the format they made it in.
Our humanitarian intervention vs. their FULL-SCALE invasion
It’s not just FULL-SCALE, it is also ILLEGAL!
Our benevolent soldiers vs their satanic death squads
I really do think that liberals should take a hard look at themselves. They don’t flinch to call Russian soldiers orcs, and ascribe to their foreign policy a mindless bloodthirst. Do they think of US soldiers the same way? Or US foreign policy (even under someone like darling Obama)? Seriously: who is more “evil” Putin or Obama? By what measure?
At least the Donbass was experiencing genuine turmoil. The Obama regime had to invent a pretext for invasion whole cloth. And fifteen years later NATO hasn’t rebuilt even a single building in Libya. Mariupol looks a lot better than it did a year and a half ago.
ukros fully support the shitrahell genociders
“fully understands the core of international politics” lol
bit timid. I would have gone for
“intimately fathoms the very essence of international politics”
flip on the x-axis
You seem confused if you think supporting Russia and Palestine makes you anti-war/pacifist and supporting Russia and Israel makes you America’s laptop.
Last time I checked supporting Russia and Israel doesn’t make you anti-war/pacifist. And supporting Russia hardly makes you America’s lapdog
Upper right is similar to lower left - inconsistent values and inconsistent ideology. Pure hypocrisy. Dogs of US vs Dogs of Russia.
Supporting Palestine makes you a dog of Russia? Sounds like you don’t fully understand the core of international geopolitics
Do you actually believe it’s inconsistent? Because it’s really quite straightforward: The US-centered capitalist empire must be stopped, and it’s genocidal proxies need to be eliminated, for the survival of the human race.
Bottom line. Thank you.
Imperialist capitalist oligarchic country must be stopped so I should support another imperialist capitalist oligarchic country. Brilliant logic.
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only one of these countries is imperialist.
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only one of these countries is a waning world hegemon with it’s boot on the neck of the planet and 900 military bases worldwide.
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the other has been forced into a position of fighting and weakening the hegemon, and therefore warrants critical support. This is why Africa, China and and most of the middle east support Russia in this war: every NATO tank and drone destroyed in Ukraine is one less to menace people elsewhere, one less to enforce murderous sanctions and austerity. The logic is very simple if you understand cause, effect and scale.
- Of course, because Belarus, Wagner group in Africa, Caucasus, are all humanitarian efforts
- True, but Spain was still imperialistic despite England being more successful. Success doesn’t excuse actions and ideology.
- Now who doesn’t really understand world politics?
You guys sound like liberals defending the invasion of Iraq.
I don’t think you know what imperialism means. Russia can and is bad without being imperialist. They may have imperial ambitions but that’s irrelevant to the now where they do not have the capacity to be imperialist. I wish people would stop trying to dilute the meaning of imperialism to just mean country doing war or big country doing thing I don’t like.
Imperialism is when a country fights another country and !uthoritarianism is when any government, especially a non-white one, does anything I don’t like.
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What are Wagner doing in Africa? Guarding mines and shit. What was Azov doing in Eastern Uktaine before Russia stopped them? Slaughtering 8,000 people with the blessing of the nazi coup government.
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Spain being imperialist (imperialistic is not a word) doesn’t make, for example, Morocco imperialist. You seem to think I’m saying Russia is a lesser imperial power. You are wrong: Russia is not an imperial power at all.
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You, emphatically
You guys sound like liberals defending the invasion of Iraq.
Oh, the US/NATO military venture designed to sieze control of a country’s resources by manufacturing a conflict with a government headed by a guy we put there in the first place?
Yeah, imagine defending something like that. If this was 2002 your gullible ass would be calling me a Saddam Lover. But of course, now that we’ve already fucked up Iraq, that war can join the list of US crimes that liberals were definitely, totally for realsies always against from the beginning. You people are as craven as you are predictable. Always opposing every war after it’s too late and supporting every war when it actually matters.
In 5 years or so when we get 9/11 2: This Time it’s Ukranian, you’ll say"Everyone knew that starting the Ukraine War was a bad and criminal idea, but this time it’s different! This time we need to support (a puppet government in the Philippines doing ethnic cleansing against Chinese people or something) against big, evil, fascist Gyna, who attacked for no reason! Democracy itself is on the line!" Over and over every few years, never learning, until we’re all dead.
My gullible ass is old enough to actually have been out in the street protesting against US/NATO and the invasion of Iraq back in 2002. You’re defending Putin’s war as if it’s justifiable by Azov or by Euromaidan. And arresting and making Tymoshenko a political prisoner or breaking the Budapest Memorandum is of course all reasonable, right?
Btw, imperialistic: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/imperialistic
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Imperialist capitalist oligarchic country must be stopped so I should support another imperialist capitalist oligarchic country. Brilliant logic.
The inconsistent part is giving a free pass to Russia when they do everything the US does just not as extensively.
Russia is not stealing the surplus value and resources of the global south on an immense scale, which is the primary reason why its resistance to the US Empire and its European vassals plays a progressive role because of this.
Russia steals the surplus value for within it’s borders, the US steals surplus value from beyond it’s borders. Like I said, Russia does everything the US does just not as extensively.
Russia is indeed capitalist, correct, not imperialist. Glad we can come to an understanding on why the US Empire is the biggest global obstacle to socialism, and that the Russian Federation’s lack of imperialism makes it worthy of critical support in undermining the US Empire.
So you support the Soviet Union, back when the USSR didn’t steal the surplus value within its borders?
If you actually believe they’re doing even a tenth of “everything” the US is doing, you are woefully underinformed to be having this conversation
I would love to hear you try to explain how the Russian Federation somehow gained as many sympathizers virtually overnight as the US empire did through decades of world-spanning regime change, propaganda networks and bribery
Supporting the liberation of Donetsk and Luhansk from the Banderite government they have been trying to secede from for a decade is a good thing, and that’s why the CPRF supports the Russian nationalists in the war. Had the west not supported a far-right coup back in 2014, it’s likely the war never would have happened.
That’s like an onion, just layers of naive. Russia has had imperial ambitions on Ukraine for a while and thinking that they care at all about the “liberation” of Donetsk and Luhansk is crazy talk.
What “imperial ambitions” do they have? Why would Russia not care about the survival of ethnic Russians right on their borders? Again, the CPRF supports Donetsk and Luhansk, as do most communist parties globally, so just saying I’m “naive” doesn’t actually form a coherent counterpoint.
“Material concerns? Physical reality? Oh ho ho, how charmingly naive, my dear boy. The true core of the matter is actually very simple, you see. Pushes glasses up anime-style Russia…is Just Evil.”
That broke me lmfao
Honestly can’t tell if it’s satire
Nope, why would it be?
Then you might not be very knowledgeable on the topic, lol
Fascist coup? Donetsk and Luhansk?
8 years of war?The average westoid never heard of that.
Can’t make it too complicated for the simpletons.
It all started when the RuZZian Putler invaded innocent ukraine for no reason, just like the conflict in Palestine started on oct 7 and nothing happened before that.
Redditor npc response #912
As if Redditors even have enough canned responses to reach 912. I wish they had that much veriaty
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Campism is when you can remember things that happened more than two weeks ago. And if you can remember things that happened more than three weeks ago, oh buddy, that’s tankie
lmao
Are you arguing that Donetsk and Luhansk don’t deserve liberation, on account of that being a “campist” take? Why would a “non-campist” not support their liberation?
See, if the government of a country want to genocide part of the population and that government is my husbando Zelensky, that me and western media mysteriously agree on being the most wholesome democratic leader ever, that’s democracy in action 😍😍😍 and don’t forget international law applies when evil Russia invades smol bean Ukraine, but if China even ATTEMPTS to breathe near Taiwan, international law is just a technicality anyway, we need to go in and fight evil authoritarian China! I’m very smart, you silly campists!
Pretty much, lol!
USA law too
It’s libwest.asocial, they support Ukraine because while they think they are anti-war/pacifist western propaganda convinced them that it actually is (it’s also convenient because they don’t have to investigate the other perspective if the enemy are one dimensional orc villains)
Nah-uh
when hamas does it it’s genocidal intent, when ukraine/israel do it is self-defence.
I was saying BOOligarchs
The double standard is real but also fuck both the US and Russia for invading.
Both based takes
No, please, we need liberation. Our government has been a problem for a long time, just that neo-liberals are getting scared.
what kind of natural reserves do you guys have ?
Oil, non-rare earth elements and rare earth elements.
Liberation, Libya or Syria style?
@usamemes
what? no one reasonable is saying all russians are bad or all americans are bad. being born in a country does not automatically make you a fan of what their military does, that’s just racist
I have seen like two dozen outspoken liberals on this very site refer to Russian people writ large as orcs, and the Russian language as orcish
Or literally call for collective punishment https://lemmy.ml/comment/23813202
no one reasonable
I also have yet to see a single reasonable person call this behavior out without immediately being accused of being a paid Russian actor tankie chinese bot. The “orcs” shit has mainstream acceptance in liberal instances. Only leftists object to it, while liberals defend it.
I don’t think you know what racist means.
Splitting hairs. If you think a group of people are intrinsically worse than others, you are effectively racist.
We can come up with new names, but ultimately it’s all the same. If you think racism means black vs white then your understanding is kindergarten level.
If you prefer, we can use the term bigoted. That term also covers other intrinsic groups like trans, gay and disabled people among others.
I think that Americans, as a group of people, are intrinsically worse than all other people yes. Americans, as a group of people, paid for and enacted a campaign that overthrew the democracy in the country where my dad is from and invaded the country my mom is from and killed a million people including my extended relatives.
So yeah, fuck Americans. Death to America. Cry more about it. Maybe if you as a group did fuck all about it I’d feel different but you don’t you just sit here judging others as if you aren’t the worst people on earth and the global villains.
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If they were anything like you, they probably deserved it.
Most compassionate .world user.
- Locate your avatar in the top right of the screen and select “Settings”
- Select “Delete Account”
- Enter your password and select “Delete”
Mask off speedrun
You’re really proving him wrong there. /s
When a country does war crimes, the entirety of its populace is not to blame, the systems, power structures and people in charge are.
Most people in a country are not for wars or other attacking other countries. This is true for America and Russia alike, to the best of my knowledge (which granted, is anecdotal).
More people should be engaged in activism and should push back against the inhumane actions of their state, and people should be less gullible to the promises of their leaders.
Both America and Russia are overdue for major reform. Their systems are broken and many of their people brainwashed. Wishing harm on them does not help and imo is not a constructive approach. If anything, hate just begets more hate, making things worse.
If you are going to have hate, it should be more focused on the people in power.
The funny thing about “hate begets more hate” is that the user you’re replying to has a good reason to feel hate, and the racist Americans on the other side of that equation don’t. And yet, between those two groups, whose hate results in millions of people dying through sanctions and warfare?
The problem with the idea of “racism” against Americans, or even hatred against Americans being problematic, is that there’s no power structure behind it that makes it real. You’re essentially policing the tone of victims here and acting like their anger at what was done to them is equivalent to the very real wrongdoing they are reacting to.
Thank you for expressing that so eloquently
Thanks. This type of thing is something I see a lot on the fediverse and it bothers me.
Fine, it’s discriminating against people based on national origin. Whatever you call it it’s stupid
I think destroying my family is worse. Death to America.
Do you think every Russian or every American is just able to leave the country as soon as they realize the awful things their government is doing? People don’t choose where to be born. Whether I was going to be Swiss or American was a decision made before I was born that if I had any say in would probably have gone the other way
I am really not interested in your excuses, when you are indiscriminately killing millions of people with economic warfare. I hate you because of these excuses. Do something about it.
Right. Not wishing death to you personally or your community or etc etc. But your country has no right to exist in its current form, and people projecting their extremely valid grievances on all of you will continue to be a problem until you all organize and change or replace the government. We constantly meet people from your country defending our nations being butchered in the name of democracy™, most people still defend the army and veterans, we have the right to be really angry, and not all of us have the patience to treat you all with silk gloves.
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Sounds like you deserve worse
“Racist” what the fuck man. World’s smartest american just dropped.
It must be an election year. Here comes the “both sides” posts
Leftists have been opposing the US Empire every day for years, election season has nothing to do with it.
Libs can’t imagine any “activism” beyond voting for garbage people.
I was in a conversation w one yesterday where we were talking about how the Epstein illuminati had been in control of American politics for the last few decades using mass 4chan to control maga and also using reddit to control vote-blue-no-matter-who.
We got to the last election and how they’ll probably engineer the next one and he said that he would vote for Kamala Harris again despite knowing that the Epstein illuminati will mass social engineer a choice between someone like Harris and JD Vance because Vance is a fascist and Harris isn’t; as if we instantly forgot the conversation we were having.
Then I became completely stupified when he posited that Americans will react once they discover how Russia was using Epstein to collect the kompromat.
He’s the most political informed person I know and unquestionably more so than the American plebiscite and even he is clearly conditioned to accept the Russia narrative and i think it makes it clear that our cultural conditioning will outlast any impact that the Epstein will have on our society.
Yep, and going to brunch.
Hey now! I enjoyed a very nice brunch this morning, right at home. No mimosas though. And my dining companion needs a full body shave.
Brunch isn’t bad itself!
Revisionism! This is where Deng Xiaoping Thought will lead you. /joke
🫠
Also technically it’s Deng Xiaoping Theory, as the CPC doesn’t consider it as fundamental as Mao Zedong Thought or Xi Jinping Thought.
I know. I just wanted to chat you up. 😋
Haha, I appreciate it!
Oh no no no. Not both sides. One side.
I’m not American I don’t know when their elections are. Liberal doesn’t mean “Democrat” it means someone who believes in the capitalist “free market” policies and opposes alternate economic systems. In the US all parties are Liberal. This meme isn’t even just about Americans, it is more about how westerners in general post on Lemmy about what Russia did in Ukraine versus about what they all did in Iraq.
I’m not American I don’t know when their elections are.
Part of the Yankee political system is that “election cycles” are so long it’s basically always close to one at least. “Election year” describes at least one in every two years.
I’m a liberal, and I support both statements.
“Liberalism is a word that means different things to different people, especially from country to country.”
Liberal values are the basis of Marx’s work. He, rightly in my opinion, thinks the liberal state cannot bring about those values for all people.
Marx rejected liberal values of individualism and the free reign of private property, I’m not sure exactly what you’re including in “liberal values.”
By ‘liberal values,’ I’m referring to the core Enlightenment goals of individual autonomy (Descartes), secularism and rationalism (Spinoza), labor theory of value (Locke/Smith/Ricardo) and universal human rights (Kant). Marx rejected the liberal state, private property, and the capitalist mode of production. But I’d argue he did so because he believed they were obstacles to those very values. Who is an individual when you’ve been commodified?
By socializing production, the individual doesn’t dissolve into the collective; but the material security is created for the individual to freely development themselves and provide to a social order.
You’re looking more at what the capitalists used to overthrow the aristocracy while entrenching their own rule here. Marx was an atheist, and built on the labor theory of value, for example. However, these liberal values were made with a mechanistic materialist outlook, not a dialectical materialist outlook, and as such could not actually stand for proletarian liberation.
Marxism is secular, has the labor theory of value, etc, but not because Marx was a staunch liberal and believed capitalism to not be capable of fulfilling these. Rather, he built upon what was already created to build new ideology.
I don’t disagree with any of this and I’m not sure what I said that would have made you think I did.
Liberalism is all about individual “rights” and “freedoms”. Such as the right of the factory owner to exploit his workers or the freedom of the newspaper owner control the narrative. This is completely at odds with communism.
Marxism is also in favor the individual and their liberty, but not the liberty to dispossess another of those liberties. He doesn’t see the individual as a natural object, but a creation of social and historical conditions. By destroying the class system, it liberates the individual to pursue their aims when they wish.
[I]n communist society, where nobody has one exclusive sphere of activity but each can become accomplished in any branch he wishes, society regulates the general production and thus makes it possible for me to do one thing today and another tomorrow, to hunt in the morning, fish in the afternoon, rear cattle in the evening, criticise after dinner, just as I have a mind, without ever becoming hunter, fisherman, herdsman or critic.
For Marx, the ‘Individual’ is not a finished product to be protected from society, but a potential to be realized through an equitable society.
PS… Dig your username
Liberalism and “liberal values” are not the basis of Marx’s work at all, they are one of his main targets of critique. Marx doesn’t start from liberal individual rights and then argue they’re imperfectly realized. He argues those rights are themselves products of bourgeois society and function to mask class domination. Saying Marx supports “individual liberty” doesn’t make him a supporter of “liberal values”, because liberal liberty is abstract and formal, while Marx’s freedom is material and social. This second response just restates Marx’s view of the individual as socially produced, which is correct, but it is reinforcing Marx rejection of liberalism. Marx was never refining liberal values, he was explaining why they arise under capitalism and why they cannot deliver real human freedom.
When I say liberal values are the ‘basis’ of Marx’s work, I am not suggesting he was a ‘liberal reformer.’ I am arguing that Marx’s work is a dialectical sublation of liberalism. He takes the some of the liberal achievements (rationalism, the end of feudal bondage, and the Labor Theory of Value) and shows that they can only be fully realized by moving beyond the capitalist mode of production. He doesn’t reject the ‘Individual’ out of hand; he rejects the liberal version of the individual (the abstract citizen) to make way for the real individual (the species-being).
Only when the real, individual man re-absorbs in himself the abstract citizen, and as an individual human being has become a species-being in his everyday life, in his particular work, and in his particular situation, only when man has recognized and organized his “own powers” as social powers, and, consequently, no longer separates social power from himself in the shape of political power, only then will human emancipation have been accomplished.
– On The Jewish Question
I wrote a full reply but realized none of it really matters until we get clarity on terms. What do you actually mean by liberal values, and which of those do you think are foundational to Marxism?
When I say liberal values, I mean things like: the primacy of private property; formal equality before the law regardless of material conditions; individual rights abstracted from real social relations; freedom of contract between unequal classes; the liberal state as a supposedly neutral arbiter standing above society; and “freedoms” of speech, press, and association that in practice follow ownership and class power, up to and including a legal system that treats rich and poor “equally” such as criminalizing both for sleeping under bridges. These are not accidental features of liberalism or it’s values but flow directly from its idealist foundations.
Liberalism begins from abstract ideas (rights, the individual, the citizen) and treats them as primary, as if they exist independently of history and material conditions. Marxism begins from the opposite direction: dialectical and historical materialism, which treats those liberal categories as historically specific social products tied to a particular mode of production. That is a fundamental theoretical clash.
Because of this, Marxism does not aim to complete or realize liberal values, but to explain why they arise under capitalism and why they cannot deliver real human emancipation. So before talking about “sublation” or continuity, we need to be clear whether liberalism is being treated as an ideal to be fulfilled, or as an ideological form to be scientifically analyzed and superseded.
What have you actually done to support anything besides ideas? Are you actually making choices in life or are you playing life like a video game, where others design it for you and all you do is pick between what they let you?
Ye, fuck them both. United states of Russia.
