Love how this is portrayed as a bad thing lmao
Exactly, the author was like “How dare they not both sides this.”
It was a difficult read cause of how biased it is
The author is a senior defense analyst at the fucking Rand corporation; there’s no way this wasn’t going to be anything BUT biased
It’s about fucking time.
As with the Ukraine war, China’s posturing as a Middle East peacemaker lacks credibility due to its one-sided stance. Beijing cannot expect its rhetoric to be taken seriously when it is so cavalier with its principles.
Do you think he wrote that with a straight face.
Author definitely isn’t mad that China mediated the Saudi-Iranian normalization while the US has been pushing for Saudi-Israeli normalization without success.
As a Chinese person, when I was very young, I learned from books that “the Jewish people are a wise people; they put honey on books to let children know that knowledge is sweet.” Before I went to university at 18, I believed that Jews were very smart, like Einstein. All my knowledge came from books. After I started university, I got my first mobile phone, and then I started accessing the internet. This led to a collapse of my worldview, as some things I had firmly believed in began to be questioned by myself. My perception of Jews was just one of many aspects that changed.
Chinese people do not discriminate against Jews. As I experienced, due to widespread propaganda, Jews have a generally positive and subtle reputation in China. The situation is more like a backlash caused by a mismatch between the promotional image and the actual product. Previously, Jews were portrayed as very wise and polite, but when the reality turned out to be different, people felt deceived, which led to what the article calls “anti-Semitism.” However, in fact, on the Chinese internet, people are just bringing up the wrongdoings that some Jews have done.
Among Jews, there are both good and bad people. I support Jewish Voice for Peace and believe that a wandering people should not be discriminated against anywhere. However, Zionists want to hijack all Jews, using the concentration camps from World War II as an emotional card to coerce everyone onto their bandwagon. When the actions of Israel in Gaza reach China, almost all Chinese people are reminded of the atrocities committed by Japanese fascists in China, treating Chinese people like livestock for slaughter. The suffering of the Palestinians makes us empathize deeply. When their homes are destroyed and their relatives killed, it is reminiscent of our past. I saw a group of Israelis holding hands and dancing in front of UN emergency relief supplies to block the aid. It tore my heart apart. I don’t know what to say, I can only say that the Palestinians are incredibly enduring. If it were me and most Chinese people, we simply couldn’t endure it.
China has never oppressed or persecuted Jews. China even sheltered Jews in Shanghai, and the current Prime Minister of Israel has praised this. But ironically, it seems that now China still does not compare to Germany in the eyes of Israel.
Israel isn’t Judaism.
…however Zionists want to hijack all Jews…
It seems pretty clear that they understand this. It looks like there’s just a little bit of a language barrier here, is all.
Israel claims to be a secular state but also a state for Jews but also Palestinians are welcome but also Palestinians are not allowed to get an Israeli passport but also they can get a passport if they are Jewish.
Israel the quantum physics of countries. In a superposition until whatever is convenient needs to be observed.
And also, even if they are a Jewish Palestinian they can still be murdered with absolute impunity.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_David_Ben_Avraham
Indeed, I did not intend to equate Israel with all Jewish people or make it representative of Judaism as a whole. If it came across that way, I apologize. Labeling all peace-loving individuals with the actions of those who engage in war due to their ethnicity is similar to the wrongdoings of Germany in the past. Such thinking is almost nonexistent in China. As Mao once said, “Make as many friends as possible and as few enemies as possible.” 😆
Chinese people have also felt a lot of persecution around the world, anti-chinese pogroms happened frequently during last century.
May the deceased rest in peace, R.I.P.
In the West and Japan, there might be a belief that when China becomes strong, it will seek revenge against them. This is actually quite different from the Chinese perspective. There is an ancient Chinese saying: “Do not do to others what you do not want done to yourself.” If you don’t want to be treated a certain way, you shouldn’t treat others that way. If, after becoming strong, we seek revenge for past persecutions, we would be becoming the very thing we detest. So, I always believe that at most, China might engage in punitive wars, but attempting to invade the West or Japan? Impossible.
Due to the atrocities committed by Japanese fascism in China, such as massacres and human experiments, there are indeed extreme opinions about “wiping out the Japanese.” However, when seriously discussing potential conflict between China and Japan, the general sentiment is that ordinary Japanese people are not at fault. The focus should be on capturing officials and far-right extremists who still promote Japanese fascism, and dismantling the Yasukuni Shrine artifacts related to war criminals. Chinese hostility towards Japan largely stems from Japan’s unrepentant stance on WWII issues—saying one thing publicly but doing another privately.
“Strong men are angry and draw their swords against stronger foes; weak men are angry and draw their swords against those weaker than themselves.”
your entire 3 day old post history is entirely ‘as a chinese person…’ it just reeks of cosplay honestly. Super weird.
You don’t interact with many ESL people, do you?
Who’s posting this style of propaganda here? Also this is exactly how my Chinese friends write in English. In a webspace that is mostly American it really doesn’t seem that abnormal to contextualize your differing perspective.
yeah it rings hollow, sorry but nobody writes like this its fake af
Bro has never talked to anyone outside the anglosphere 😭
It sounds fake if you only read the first sentence that started with “As a Chinese person…”. If you keep reading on and still think propaganda then
https://hexbear.net/comment/4917613
As a Chinese person, I can share my own observations from both online and real life:
LGBTQ+ There is almost no public promotion of LGBTQ+ issues in China. LGBTQ+ individuals are not considered a >mainstream group, and most people are indifferent to them. Online, many references to LGBTQ+ are just jokes >or memes meant to entertain, not necessarily to mock the community. For instance, phrases like “Bro, you smell >so good” are popular online jokes. In real life, if you are part of the LGBTQ+ community, it doesn’t really matter >to most people; everyone has their own life. However, if LGBTQ+ individuals try to date heterosexuals, it usually >leads to discomfort. If a child wants to identify as LGBTQ+, it depends on their parents, and most parents do not >approve. Also, since LGBTQ+ concepts are seen as coming from Western countries, some LGBTQ+ individuals >who are perceived as overly admiring Western culture can face backlash. Chinese public opinion generally >acknowledges heterosexuality, homosexuality, and bisexuality, but concepts like “72 genders” and “gender >fluidity” are seen as incomprehensible. Phrases like “My gender is an attack helicopter, and I want to screw a >tank” are commonly used to mock the plethora of gender identities in the West.
Women’s Rights As a socialist country, women’s rights are well-protected in China. Prostitution is illegal (to combat human >trafficking). In stable government jobs, women make up a large proportion. However, there are some >peculiarities: women have maternity leave, and some declare pregnancy right after being hired to receive paid >maternity leave and then resign afterward. In government jobs, some women may claim they cannot handle the >workload and pass their responsibilities to male colleagues or other female colleagues, leading to a form of >hidden hiring discrimination in some companies and government units.
Anti-Racism Chinese people generally focus on a person’s actions rather than their race. Discrimination tends to be based on >an individual’s behavior, regardless of skin color or ethnicity. Ethnic minorities in China receive preferential >treatment, with special funds to promote their traditional cultures and extra points on college entrance exams. >However, as the economic conditions of some minorities have become comparable to the Han majority, places >like Shandong are considering abolishing these extra points. Ethnic minorities like Tibetans and Mongolians also >have the option to take their college entrance exams in their native languages. During my university years, >Mongolian students often joked that they didn’t ride horses to school.
Respect for Youth and the Elderly I don’t quite understand the concept of “respecting the youth.” Is it similar to bowing to someone in Japan? In >China, as the birthplace of Confucianism, respecting the elderly and caring for the young are considered >traditional virtues and are commonly practiced in daily life. However, due to the “Peng Yu case,” where a judge >asked, “If you didn’t knock the old person down, why did you help them up?” many people are now wary of >helping fallen elderly individuals for fear of being extorted (which has happened multiple times). Such >extortionists are referred to as “taking advantage of their old age.”
I apologize if I caused you any discomfort. About a month ago, I learned about Lemmy, and I was quietly observing, like a crab blowing bubbles in the water. Then, a few days ago, I saw a post asking, “Is Lemmy banned in China?” That sparked a thought in me: “Hey, why not register and communicate with everyone to share some real information about China?” So, I submitted an application to the admins and joined the Lemmy community. It’s like a little crab suddenly swimming up from the riverbed to the surface, announcing its presence to every passing fish. This might indeed annoy the fish. As time goes by, I might become like one of the small fish, blowing bubbles together with you all in a friendly way on some issues. Or perhaps, I will return to the riverbed, continuing to be a quiet crab blowing bubbles. 😂
That is such a lovely metaphor. I love your posting style!
Thank you for liking it! 😆
That sparked a thought in me: “Hey, why not register and communicate with everyone to share some real information about China?
The 2 main Lemmy developers (who also run lemmy.ml), Dessalines and Nutomic, are outspoken Marxist Leninists and very pro CPC. This place doesn’t have anywhere close to the level of China derangement syndrome that reddit has.
What a strange strange comment. Why are you talking about how “Jews” were “portrayed” to be “wise” but then “the promotional image didn’t match the product”?
Among Jews, there are both good and bad people
Which should go entirely without saying, which is why your comment is so strange. You keep talking about “Jews” as an entity that has a “promotional image” and that you perceive collectively as “smart like Einstein”, or not.
This is a difference between China and foreign countries. Let me explain:
I was born in 2001. When I started school, it was around 2008 in elementary school until 2019 when I finished high school. Many students didn’t have mobile phones, and the internet was often seen by parents as something that affected our studies. The limited computer time we had was almost entirely used for playing video games. Apart from learning about pre-2000 foreign history in school, my main sources of external information were from newsstands outside the school and magazines bought by my parents. In these magazines, the images of foreigners were constructed: I believed Americans were innovative, Germans were rigorous, British were gentlemanly, French were romantic, Russians were bold, and Jews were wise. Due to the actions of parents and schools, education in China before high school was quite closed off. It wasn’t until 2015, when I had to memorize Xi Jinping’s new thoughts on green development in politics class, that I realized the current leader of China was no longer Hu Jintao. For those of us who had only study on our minds before entering college, there is a specific term in China: “small-town exam-takers.”
When I got to college and had my own mobile phone, being able to browse the internet without a very purposeful mindset, it coincided with a “major upheaval.” The rhetoric in those magazines that deliberately praised foreigners was heavily criticized in 2019. It was seen as deliberately arguing for the inferiority of Chinese people. Let me give you a few examples so you can understand what I saw as a child:
The sewage system in the former German-leased area of Qingdao had been operating efficiently for over a century. When some parts needed replacement, the original company no longer existed. A German company sent an email saying that, according to their construction standards, there should be a small storage room within three meters of the worn-out parts where spare parts could be found. The urban construction company found the small storage room in the sewer, and inside, the spare parts were still shiny and new, wrapped in oilcloth.
During a summer camp between Japanese and Chinese children, each child had to carry a 20kg backpack for a 50km hike. The Chinese children soon gave up, but the Japanese children persevered. The Chinese children couldn’t endure the hardship and were not as tough as the Japanese children (my teacher even told us to learn from the Japanese children).
Once in America, a sparrow got tangled in an exposed high-voltage wire by the roadside. Its distressing cries caught the attention of passersby, who immediately called for help. After multiple levels of authorization, the rescue workers eventually got approval from the President within half an hour to send a special plane to cut the national power line in Washington, causing a temporary blackout across the U.S. to save the sparrow.
I learned all three of these from books. Of course, you might say, what kind of nonsense is this, it’s completely fabricated. This rhetoric wasn’t meant for foreigners; it was actually used as internal propaganda within China. Afterward, it was tied together with the “toxic textbooks” incident (where illustrations in elementary school textbooks deliberately depicted Chinese children as ugly and foreigners as attractive), which was believed to be a deliberate attempt by some foreign enemies and domestic traitors to prove that Chinese people couldn’t achieve the same accomplishments as foreigners, thereby belittling Chinese people. This is why I mentioned that Jews indeed have a “promotional image” in China.
In 2019, the Chinese internet was like a chaotic battlefield with all sorts of ideas, from the most peaceful to the most extreme, from the far left to the far right. I once received very hurtful insults for expressing left-wing views on a Chinese platform called Zhihu (similar to Quora). Mutual personal attacks are not uncommon.Now the Chinese internet is still influenced by this, which is why I find Lemmy to be a great environment. At least here, we are having discussions instead of cursing each other with voodoo dolls. 😆
Your experiences are very similar to mine (I am indian) haha. You are definitely not lying. I even remember before coming to college I had a romanticised view of the west. “If I get to Europe everything will be better for me” was the mindset I was operating on. And then when I came to Europe I had to live in practically a slumhouse for months before finding stable accommodation. Today, I leave my house at 6 am and come back at 8 or 9 pm. These past few years have seen a major cultural shift in all of the global south countries I think.
In recent years, Global South countries have started to become wealthier through development. Although they can’t yet compare to developed countries, a person who is well-fed is always more confident than someone who is hungry. 😆
In the US, there are positive and negative stereotypes, too. German efficiency and Japanese perfectionism and perseverance are among them. Jewish intelligence and commitment to education, too. These things have a basis in reality, of course, but they shouldn’t be mistaken for reality itself. It seems to me these things appearing in your textbooks were probably attempts by your own government to get its people to emulate what it sees as positive traits in other cultures, rather than an attempt by foreign adversaries to paint Chinese people as inferior. Of course, when the message was a little too unclear or negative as in the “toxic textbooks” incident, your government deflected blame.
It seems that the saying “the moon is brighter abroad” applies to many countries. China’s situation might be a bit more unique, so let me explain in more detail. Since you are American, some of the descriptions below might sound offensive to you. I apologize for that and will try to stick to factual statements, which might help explain why many Chinese people illegally immigrate to the United States.
From the 1990s until the US-China trade war (which most people consider starting with the US sanctions on ZTE in 2018), foreign countries (especially developed countries like those in Europe and the US) were seen as paradises on Earth. Online, phrases like “Reincarnate as an American in the next life” were blessings (perhaps similar to saying “God bless you and may you go to heaven”), while “Eternally being Chinese” was considered a curse (similar to saying “I curse you to be eternally tormented in hell by Satan”). Due to online propaganda, such as “You can buy a big piece of fried chicken for one dollar in the US,” “You can easily live in a 500-square-meter mansion in the US,” or “Washing dishes in the US can earn you $3000 a month,” many Chinese people were very attracted to these ideas and believed them to be true. Even from my perspective now, I couldn’t buy 3000 pieces of chicken with a month’s salary.
When the US-China trade war started, the idea of “surrendering to the US for leniency” gained traction in China. How could a developing country possibly compete with the world’s leading superpower? Many supporters of China online can only believed that, in terms of military power, the US couldn’t completely destroy China. Then came the COVID-19 pandemic in 2019. Initially, the Chinese government’s poor performance further fueled this mindset. However, as the pandemic became global, several things changed the online narrative:
- China managed to control the pandemic fairly well.
- The performance of Western developed countries in controlling the pandemic was poor in comparison.
- Some people began sharing their lives abroad without filters, showing both the good and bad aspects of foreign countries (of course, some people only highlighted the bad parts for attention).
- At that time, some American politicians called for a coalition to make China pay for the pandemic, and there was talk of a new G8, which directly triggered online anger at the prospect of a “new Eight-Nation Alliance.” Simultaneously, the Hong Kong riots intensified this idea: Western powers led by the US were again attempting to carve up China.
You could see this as a struggle between “pro-American” and “self-reliant” factions in China. The pro-American faction had been cultivating their views for years, while the self-reliant faction garnered more support from ordinary people. The two sides fought fiercely online. However, as I mentioned, the pro-American faction’s exaggerated claims about foreign countries often needed only a photo to be debunked, leading them to frequently resort to personal attacks, further diminishing their influence.
By 2022, with the onset of the Russia-Ukraine war, Chinese public opinion split between supporting Russia and Ukraine. Due to differences in transliterations of the Russian president’s name between Taiwan (“Puding”) and mainland China (“Putin”), people suspected that Taiwan was engaging in cognitive warfare against the mainland, leading to broader suspicions that developed countries were also waging cognitive wars against China, especially Japan. The phrase “700 million yen from the Japanese Ministry of Foreign Affairs” is often used sarcastically to mock supporters of Japan.
Currently, on the Chinese internet, those who advocate for Ukraine and Israel are generally assumed to be bots or paid shills, as they can’t explain their support logically. Support for Ukraine and Palestine is based on opposition to invasion, while support for Russia and Palestine aligns with China’s interests. Supporting Russia and Israel suggests a belief in the power of might, but supporting both Ukraine and Israel? Chinese people wouldn’t think like that.
This is why 30,000 to 40,000 Chinese people have illegally crossed from Mexico into the US. They come with suitcases, bringing their families, and often carrying tens of thousands of dollars in cash. When asked by journalists why they came to the US, they repeatedly say, “For freedom and democracy.” I am not at all surprised that Trump thinks these people are spies. If foreigners illegally crossed into China just to “build communism,” most people would think they were crazy and wonder why they didn’t just submit a migration application. The truth is that, in their eyes, the US is a “land flowing with milk and honey,” similar to how Marco Polo described “China being paved with gold” (history doesn’t repeat itself, but it rhymes🤣 ).They are actually coming to the US for a better life. Most of these people are of no use to the US and can only compete for low-threshold basic jobs, which is why they can’t immigrate legally and resort to illegal entry.
English is a second language to them clearly. Cut them some slack.
Cool, now do Christians and Uyghurs.
The popular view of Israel is as a modern state created with the backing of powerful western allies. This may be true of the current iteration of the state of Israel but the history is much older.
Jews have been living in Israel for thousands of years dating back to the Iron Age Kingdom of Israel, though for much of the intervening time the area was called Palestine (or other names). Owing to its long history of conquests and migration, many Jews left Palestine and migrated throughout Europe, forming diaspora communities (and frequently subject to antisemitism and violent pogroms).
Back in the 1500s the Ottoman Empire conquered Palestine and considered it part of Ottoman Syria. This lasted for centuries until the fall of the Ottoman Empire.
What Zionists want is the same thing that Palestinians want and the same thing that Chinese people already have (and Japanese and Korean and many other groups have): a homeland. Zionism as an idea goes back centuries, to the original departure of Jews and forming diaspora communities. The conflicts between Jews and other groups in Palestine (including Christians who migrated there in the Middle Ages) goes back centuries.
The main difference now is that Israel has an enormous amount of power due to their alliance with the UK and the US. The US in particular has a sizeable Jewish diaspora community that grew dramatically during the Holocaust. The cities of New York and Los Angeles are home to sizeable and highly influential Jewish communities, and many Hollywood executives, producers, actors, and comedians are Jewish. Jewish culture therefore forms a very substantial part of American culture (through TV shows like Seinfeld and Curb Your Enthusiasm and many movies) and many American non-Jews are politically friendly to the Zionist cause.
I, personally, don’t have a stake in the outcome. I want the violence to stop but I have no idea how that’s going to happen. The most recent conflict really has been going on for over a century. At one time even Nazi Germany had a side in it, supporting Arabic Palestinians. There have been many pogroms and genocides over the centuries, targeting both Jews and other groups. The Ottoman Empire committed genocides as well. It’s horrific but it’s so difficult to imagine a scenario where it will stop.
Jews have been living in Israel for thousands of years dating back…
Completely and utterly irrelevant. Claims made on the basis of things that happened thousands of years ago should be given absolutely 0 weight on current decisions.
What Zionists want is the same thing that Palestinians want and the same thing that Chinese people already have (and Japanese and Korean and many other groups have): a homeland.
Absolutely incorrect. The Chinese people and Korean people did not fight for a homeland, they fought against colonial invaders and capitalist forces and won. The Palestinians have a similar goal. Zionists are fighting to be the colonists, believing that some land belongs to them because other people thousands of years ago vaguely connected to them lived there. Their goals are the complete opposite.
The conflicts between Jews and other groups in Palestine (including Christians who migrated there in the Middle Ages) goes back centuries.
No it doesn’t. It dates back to Zionist incursions and crimes in Palestine. This is not a religious conflict in way, and religious groups aren’t the primary actors in history to begin with, that would be classes, in this case, the settlers and non-settlers. Zionists have only claimed religion as a convenient cover.
I want the violence to stop but I have no idea how that’s going to happen.
The violence will stops when one side wins permanently. Either the Zionists succeed in ethnically cleansing the area (they will likely act aggressively against other countries in the region though) or the Palestinians succeed in having a stable secular multi-ethnic state established.
At one time even Nazi Germany had a side in it, supporting Arabic Palestinians.
If you want to do good hasbara, try to not associate Nazi Germany with the Palestinians. That is how you make your malicious intentions impossible to hide.
it’s so difficult to imagine a scenario where it will stop.
Skill issue, or I guess in this case, ideological issue.
I wish people would explain their downvotes for this post. It has more information and nuance than 99% of the posts on lemmy. I guess because it doesn’t fit whatever rage they are currently entertaining.
Nuance isn’t required here. Zionists want a theocratic apartheid state, Palestinians want a multi-ethnic, multi-religious state.
It’s not Hamas bombing churches in Gaza. It wasn’t Hamas who bombed Bethlehem and burned down the Christmas tree on Christmas Eve.
Oh goodness.
Indeed, I don’t know how to stop it either. If saving the Palestinians leads to another massacre of Jews, then as a proverb says, “An eye for an eye leaves everyone blind.” “冤冤相报何时了。”It will only result in more bloodshed and cries of anguish. The Chinese government has consistently supported the 1967 two-state solution; I have seen this mentioned many times in official news. Perhaps what we need is an “Israeli-Palestinian Mandela.” 😢
A 2 state solution was never realistic. Throwing out unworkable peace solutions or quibbling over details instead of outright saying they’re not ready for peace so that they can continue violence is a US (and israeli) tactic you’ll see over and over.
The US and Israel both knew Palestine was never gonna give up its best land to hostile invaders, as the borders would make their economy entirely dependent on Israel, and Israel media made it very clear that such a state would only be temporary.
So it’s really a “messy situation.” Israel was artificially established after World War II, which is like a gang giving away your living room to someone else. You would definitely feel that this person is infringing on your home, but you can’t fight them. Now they are occupying your bedroom, and soon your own bed will belong to them. The two-state solution only limits others from taking over your bedroom, but they still occupy your living room, and you have to pass through the living room to leave the house. For the resident, it’s originally their own house; for the person living in the living room, they fought and bled for it, and now they are being asked to give back the hallway and bathroom. Doesn’t that mean they bled in vain?
So it’s really a messy situation. Sometimes, it can only be suppressed by a powerful intermediary who has no core interest in this house. This is not a complete solution but a temporary truce. If enough time passes, we might see a full reconciliation, just like in ancient China where various ethnic groups had wars and blood feuds, but from the perspective of modern China, they are just words recorded in books.
Israel is a country and Jews’ a racial group.
Jew is a religion. Ashkenazi, Sefardi, Mizrahi are racial groups perhaps.
Jews are also considered an ethnicity, not only a religion. There are nonreligious ethnic Jews and there are people who follow Judaism but who are not ethnic Jews.
I wouldn’t consider “Jew” an ethnicity more than “Asian” – several different ethnicities under one label.
Fair enough. Point is, it’s not only a religious label
In late October, Israel signed on to a joint statement of concern with more than 50 other governments about alleged Chinese crimes against humanity in its predominantly Muslim Xinjiang region.
LMAO
China is fundamentally opposed to any Israeli military operations, even in self-defense
No such thing?
Very nice.
Based
The west is really looking bad when South Africa and China are outshining them on this issue.
South Africa’s a democracy with a history of opposing Israeli apartheid.
It’s really not surprising that it’s taking the lead on this.
Both China and South Africa are aligned with Iran and Russia. Who are the baddies again?
America, hth op
We already like China and South Africa, you don’t need to sell them to us even more lol
Hey now when it’s genocide of the Ukrainian people it’s okay don’t you know?
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I imagine it’s highly political, and likely directly due to the fact they are an adversary to the US. So let’s not get carried away…
But yeah, it’s pathetic the US just sent a billion dollars in munitions to Israel.
Posturing political BS. They’re still fucking supporting Russia and their killing of innocent people.
What a joke
their killing of innocent people
The US & Israel are literally committing genocide while you’re parroting US Cold War III talking points.
That’s all about China from what I can tell, I may not have gone down far enough.
The person you are responding to is upset with China for supporting Russia’s killing of innocent people.
I would think that they would have “They’re fucking killing innocent people and supporting Russia.” if they were referring to Uighur people.
Also their instead of they’re is another big indicator.
Don’t forget about the Uyghurs.
Removed by mod
Nonsense, Russia is China’s bridge to Israel
Give the resistance a nuke
bit goofy seeing as China continues to prosecute moslems and deny that they do it
The whole conspiracy theory started with a claim of millions of Uyghurs being supposedly imprisoned story is based on two highly dubious “studies.”.
However, this claim is completely absurd when you stop and think about it even for a minute. That figure 1 million is repeated again and again. Let’s just look at how much space would you actually need to intern one million people.
This is a photo of Rikers Island, New York City’s biggest prison. The actual size of a facility interning ten thousand people.
According to Wikipedia, “The average daily inmate population on the island is about 10,000, although it can hold a maximum of 15,000.” Let’s assume this is a Xinjiang detention camp, holding ten to fifteen thousand people. How many of these would it take to hold one million people?
Let’s do some math:
Rikers Size Rikers Prisoners One Million Uyghurs Size 413.2 acres (0.645 square miles) 10,000 to 15,000 43 to 64 square miles In reality, one million people would probably take more space; all the supposed detention camps we see are much less dense than Rikers.
For comparison, San Francisco is 47 square miles. Amsterdam is 64 square miles. You’d literally need detention camps that total the size of San Francisco or Amsterdam to intern one million Uyghurs. It’d be like looking at a map of California. There’s Los Angeles. There’s San Diego. And look, there’s San Francisco Concentration City with its one million Uyghurs.
Literally visible to the naked eye from space.
CHRD states that it interviewed dozens of ethnic Uyghurs in the course of its study, but their enormous estimate was ultimately based on interviews with exactly eight Uyghur individuals. Based on this absurdly small sample of research subjects in an area whose total population is 20 million, CHRD “extrapolated estimates” that “at least 10% of villagers […] are being detained in re-education detention camps, and 20% are being forced to attend day/evening re-education camps in the villages or townships, totaling 30% in both types of camps.” Furthermore, it doesn’t even make sense from logistics perspective.
Practically all the stories we see about China trace back to Adrian Zenz is a far right fundamentalist nutcase and not a reliable source for any sort of information. The fact that he’s the primary source for practically every article in western media demonstrates precisely what I’m talking about when I say that coverage is divorced from reality.
Zenz is a born-again Christian who lectures at the European School of Culture and Theology. This anodyne-sounding campus is actually the German base of Columbia International University, a US-based evangelical Christian seminary which considers the “Bible to be the ultimate foundation and the final truth in every aspect of our lives,” and whose mission is to “educate people from a biblical worldview to impact the nations with the message of Christ.”
Zenz’s work on China is inspired by this biblical worldview, as he recently explained in an interview with the Wall Street Journal. “I feel very clearly led by God to do this,” he said. “I can put it that way. I’m not afraid to say that. With Xinjiang, things really changed. It became like a mission, or a ministry.”.
Along with his “mission” against China, heavenly guidance has apparently prompted Zenz to denounce homosexuality, gender equality, and the banning of physical punishment against children as threats to Christianity.
Zenz outlined these views in a book he co-authored in 2012, titled Worthy to Escape: Why All Believers Will Not Be Raptured Before the Tribulation. In the tome, Zenz discussed the return of Jesus Christ, the coming wrath of God, and the rise of the Antichrist.
The fact that this nutcase is being paraded as a credible researcher on the subject is absolutely surreal, and it’s clear that the methodology of his “research” doesn’t pass any kind of muster when examined closely.
It’s also worth noting that there is a political angle around the narrative around Xinjiang. For example, here’s George Bush’s chief of staff openly saying that US wants to destabilize the region, and NED recently admitting to funding Uyghur separatism for the past 16 years on their own official Twitter page. An ex-CIA operative details US operations radicalizing and training terrorists in the region in this book. Here’s an excerpt:
US has been stoking terrorism in the region while they’ve been running a propaganda campaign against China in the west. In fact, US even classified Uyghur separatists as a terrorist group at one point https://www.mintpressnews.com/us-was-at-war-uyghur-terrorists-now-claims-etim-doesnt-exist/276916/
Here’s an interview with a son of imam killed in Xinjiang https://news.cgtn.com/news/2020-06-19/Son-of-imam-assassinated-in-Kashgar-s-2014-mosque-attack-speaks-out-RqNiyrcRuo/index.html
Here’s an account from a Pakistani journalist who has been all over Xinjiang (which borders Pakistan) claims that western media reports on “atrocities” are lies. https://dailytimes.com.pk/723317/exposing-the-occidents-baseless-lies-about-xinjiang/
It’s also worth noting that the accusations originate entirely from the west while Muslim majority countries support China, and their leaders have visited Xinjiang many times.
- https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/on-eid-xinjiang-imams-defend-china-against-u-s-criticism-1.5425967
- https://www.bolnews.com/latest/2023/07/pak-religious-leaders-nurture-bonds-of-cooperation-with-xinjiang/
- https://morningstaronline.co.uk/article/w/islamic-envoys-say-china-is-protecting-minorities-in-xinjiang-after-five-day-visit
Also notable that whenever western media actually deigns to visit Xinjiang, which is not often, they’re unable to produce support for any of their claims of mass imprisonment and oppression, so they opt for insinuations instead https://apnews.com/article/coronavirus-pandemic-lifestyle-china-health-travel-7a6967f335f97ca868cc618ea84b98b9
There’s a further list of debunking here if you’re interested https://redsails.org/the-xinjiang-atrocity-propaganda-blitz/
The whole thing is very clearly a propaganda blitz that US is cynically using to manipulate impressionable people in the west.
The whole conspiracy theory started with a claim of millions of Uyghurs being supposedly imprisoned story is based on two highly dubious “studies.”. However, this claim is completely absurd when you stop and think about it even for a minute. That figure 1 million is repeated again and again. Let’s just look at how much space would you actually need to intern one million people.
Based on the article you linked from quartz, I think you may be misconstruing the claim of 1 million people in detention. The article seems to suggest that the potential million people have been through the process of work or education camps, not that there are a million people actively held in detention at the same time.
There is no evidence for such claims either though.
Technically anecdotal evidence is evidence, but it must be weighed as such, and is not conclusive unless supported with verifiable data. But, that’s kinda besides the point.
I was merely pointing out an issue with your methodology, not the overall argument.
These are claims as opposed to evidence though, and these claims must be weighed against actual evidence and contrasting claims. For example, plenty of people from all over the world have been to places like Xinjiang, and there are plenty of local people who speak about this.
These are claims as opposed to evidence though, and these claims must be weighed against actual evidence and contrasting claims.
Yes the 1 million thing is a claim, which is “supported” by anecdotal evidence. Which as you say needs to be weighted against negating evidence, and can be dismissed by contrasting anecdotal evidence.
Again, not trying to attack your overall argument, just pointing out a problem within the framework of your negation. Mostly because you seem like a person who might care about that.
Fair, I’m just noting that the anecdotal evidence itself is not actual evidence. Like if you saw a documented car crash and from that started extrapolating that car crashes are very common, that’s using anecdotal evidence. If you had somebody come to you and say there are a lot of car crashes happening, that’s just an unsubstantiated claim. I’m saying that what you refer to as anecdotal evidence doesn’t even live up to that standard.
Is it goofy to prosecute east turkistan terrorists? I guess it is for westerners whose official policy is to bomb all muslims.
Seems like both the Organization of Islamic Cooperation and Muslim countries in general that have sent delegates to Xinjiang agree western propaganda about it is false too ¯_(ツ)_/¯
The only ones propagating these claims are imperial core countries as you’d expect lol
Can someone “both sides” this issue for me, I keep seeing all this shit saying it’s obvious China is committing genocide and another pile of shit saying the opposite. I feel like 90% of my understanding of the issue is based on propaganda from one side or another.
The truth is it’s all propaganda from both sides and no one actually knows what’s going on. And because I’m saying this anywhere I’m probably going to be downvoted to oblivion as either side will downvote me. However, what we do know is:
- China has admitted there are training camps in the Xinjiang Area.
- The training camps are mandatory and people have been forced to go there.
- The graduates have been spread all over China gaining employment in pretty much every factory in China (This imho is because it makes things impossible to sanction)
- The people are compensated for their time in the training camps (This is what makes them forced labor camps in theory)
- It is a cultural thing where guests in Xinjiang are invited to sleep in the same bed. This has lead to many stories of Chinese people forcing themselves into the bedrooms of Xinjiang people.
What we are sure isn’t quite right:
- They are not genociding the people in the camps. This is why the conversation has turned to “cultural genocide” whatever that means. I believe this is propaganda to reinforce that they could be genocide when there is no evidence.
- There is a lot of fake evidence for the genocide. For example the prison camp image or the truck that is censored but has red liquid leaking out of it were all doctored. Just this alone has to make you question the truth of those claiming genocide.
- The “leaked list” of prisoners is fake. It contains HK movie stars and actors.
What we could probably conclude:
- I’d argue that there is forced labor occurring as they are literally being forced into training camps and getting paid for it.
- There is no forced labor in the factories USA is claiming there is. After graduating, the students are welcome to move and work where they want, so this can’t be forced labor.
Final questions:
- What happens to those who won’t participate in the forced training camps? We don’t know, and that’s ultimately where the disconnect and miscommunication is coming from. The west is claiming they’re being killed. China isn’t saying anything but then are at a minimum keeping them locked up indefinitely. So, in the end, it’s a bad situation for sure but it’s likely not as bad as the western propaganda makes it look.
That makes sense on its face, Chinese imperialism typically takes the form of cultural erasure to promote social harmony and homogeneity. If they want to assimilate the Uyghur peoples then I imagine they would do it economically through changes in their material conditions and jobs, and the CCP clearly has no issues with violently forcing populations to do things they don’t want to.
Thanks for the report :)
China promotes the Han Chinese culture as the standard through their policies and restrictions on personal freedoms and expression.
This is bullshit. You’ve been taken for a fool.
Pretty normal (and necessary) to have a national language lol. 96% of Tibetans can speak their local language since it’s part of the curriculum, and Tibetan and Uyghur cultures are highly promoted in Chinese media as mandated by the CPC.
Do you watch Chunwan? It’s the most watched media in China’s national television, where every year there are displays of traditional Uyghur culture in Xinjiang — dresses, dances, etc.
Dilraba Dilmurat, the most popular celebrity in China, is of Uyghur descent and performs in those traditional garbs.
Claiming China is “suppressing Uyghur/Tibet culture” or other bs like that is hilarious nonsense to anyone who knows even a little about the country lmfao.
If you don’t know about the country you’re speaking about, you should ask questions and look into it instead of parroting imperial core narratives.
One celebrity giving an annual performance isn’t really convincing to me. What about the limits on children under 18 from participating in religious activities? The restrictions on unauthorized religious gatherings? The demolition of religious sites? The requirement for religious leaders to register with the state? The reduction of teaching traditional languages in favor of the Chinese language? These certainly seem adjacent to cultural erasure to me. These policies all have a chilling effect and make it less likely for non-CCP approved cultures to prosper, and I see no way that is not deliberate.
It’s literally the most watched television program on the planet lmao.
What about the limits on children under 18 from participating in religious activities?
Preventing child abuse and indoctrination is very cool and good actually. Wish I wasn’t exposed to it as a kid.
The demolition of religious sites?
What? Xinjiang has some of the largest mosques in the world lol. And a pretty high ratio of mosques to Muslims (about as high as my own country’s actually).
The requirement for religious leaders to register with the state?
Good. If the capitalist Russian Federation also continued to suppress the church and its leaders like the USSR did and China does, so much of the population would not have become so religious and reactionary.
What’s with this obsession with relating Uyghur culture to religion? Sure, so long as it’s only adults exposed to religions and it’s consensual, fine, but Xinjiang’s culture is much more than that, as are those of any region where religions are unfortunately still prevalent.
Religions are generally in decline in every place that’s progressing economically, and Xinjiang is no exception. That’s a good thing.
It’s a hot take because while you are right, it’s something that all countries do. It’s just not necessarily the government that does it. Just look at the culture wars in the US. China’s biggest difference is it’s controlled by the government. But it also has nothing to do with Xinjiang. They do it to everyone, Hans Chinese inclusive. Technically that’s what the great leap forward was. First forcing the Hans Chinese people to assimilate to the government’s idea of a unified country. It worked, so they’re pushing it everywhere.
Also, it’s important to note that the only violent enforcement of this was on the Hans Chinese. This was Tian an men. After that they’ve gotten really good at subversion. There was only one suspicious killing in the HK riots for example. For as large a protest as it was, it was largely nonviolent. Compare that with BLM in the States.
Hot take! I think it’s bad when anyone does it, not just China. Crazy, I know lol. I understand that these are the things that come with running a country but that doesn’t mean they are ethical, or even the only options.
Thank you for validating the fact that I am pointing out real things that are actually happening and not just saying “nuh uh” like others have been doing.
Well a problem with your argument is that assimilation is not only not unethical, but absolutely necessary for a functioning society. Imagine if you will for a second if our culture accepted racism and bigotry. It would be necessary to force assimilation on people to stop racism and bigotry. Oh wait, that’s happening right now. We’re literally forcing a culture of acceptance on a culture of racism and bigotry. Is that unethical? Should we stop? Perhaps we should have colored drinking fountains.
The problem you’re having with China is:
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The government is the one that’s doing it, instead of naturally letting companies like Disney shove it down people’s throats.
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The assimilation is over reaching.
The biggest problem is #2. We don’t know what the fuck that means. Should I be allowed to say the N word if there’s no other racism or bigotry? If there’s no racism and bigotry, is the N word even racist? Yet we enforce word usage today, just words that only have meaning because we give them meaning. yet it’s quite over reaching to censor words no? Where’s the line drawn?
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Acknowledging the downvotes doesn’t make this comment any less cringe or misinformed lol
Thank you for the breakdown. I’m very genuinely curious about this cultural bed sharing thing but the only thing I’m finding is that it’s common amongst family, not with guests. (I’m not questioning you, I’m just actually curious about this)
Another question - do you mean to say that you don’t think cultural genocide is a thing (whether in this situation or not)? Cause it’s definitely a facet of regular genocide, even genocide-lite.
Unfortunately I can’t find articles talking about bed sharing without it being from western media. It’s obviously not something that’s news worthy to begin with. I only know this because of my friends from the Xinjiang region.
The problem with the concept of cultural genocide is that there’s a culture to genocide. Culture is defined by the situations and effects of the moment. Culture changes, ebbs and flows. The Menorah is as much a part of Jewish culture as the Torah. But the Menorah was created out of what we today would call cultural genocide. You can’t genocide culture that idea is ridiculous, instead the culture will adapt and change with whatever is happening at the moment.
The question then isn’t is there cultural genocide, but what if anything we should protect in a culture. USA used to have a culture of racism, we obviously went out of our way to “culturally genocide” that. Should we have not done that? Should the fact that it was part of our culture mean we should protect oppressing black people? In reality, by our own definitions, some cultures do need to be genocided.
Yeah but cultural genocide (ethnocide) doesn’t refer to just kill off parts of a culture. It’s a systemic approach, usually backed by law, to destroy the entire ethnicity and cultural norms.
Take for example what the Canadian government calls the cultural genocide of indigenous people in Canada. Their intention was not to kill the parts of indigenous culture that they didn’t like, but it was forced assimilation through legal action and through removing children from their culture. It was remove/ban/destroy all indigenous culture - very “kill the Indian and save the man”. That is cultural genocide.
In your example, the “destruction” of racism in American culture was not led by a government and not led against any ethnic group directly. Nobody was taking Confederate kids away from their family to teach them the “right” way.
Yes cultures change and adapt, but ethnocide is the very intentional move to do everything possible to destroy that culture. Will it adapt? Sure, yes, indigenous cultures have been extremely resilient and survived in Canada. but to say that it wasn’t cultural genocide is to ignore the fact that children were literally ripped from their families in order to stop them from practicing their culture, or that cultural meetings and even just any type of meeting within their own groups was outlawed.
Indian children should be withdrawn as much as possible from the parental influence, and the only way to do that would be to put them in central training industrial schools where they will acquire the habits and modes of thought of white men.
That’s a quote from our first prime minister. That is what I mean when I say cultural genocide.
Cultural genocide is intentional. And much of the time, as I mentioned before, it is a facet of violent genocide because it leads to deaths and multigenerational trauma. Even if the government wasn’t going in and killing people en masse and intentionally - which is how genocide is technically defined - there’s no way that this is not a type of genocide.
I mean if that’s your definition, then China is not doing cultural genocide. They aren’t separating children from parents and re-educating the children to assimilate. They’re taking the parents, re-educating them and telling them to tell their children to be like them moving forward. That’s what the whole sleeping in the beds thing is about. They’re going family to family to make sure they don’t break up families and make the whole family accept a new way of living.
Also, the destruction of racism was targeting white people. Heck that’s what they’re complaining about. They even had traditions and parties based on racism, least we forget who the KKK is So unless black people were also the target of anti-racism, then it was very much just the white people. Also, it was very much a movement from the government. It’s why it lead to a civil war where the south said they could not abide by the northern government.
*Edit: In fact there’s video after video of families in XInjiang asking the people who fled to come home. NOW, that said, it’s entirely possible and likely they were forced to do this. But what I’m pointing out is, they’re absolutely making sure that the families stay together and change as a unit, not forcing separation like what Canada did.
Cutting Through the BS on Xinjiang by BadEmpanada is highly detailed with sources in the description.
You could also watch through the countless videos of people travelling through Xinjiang on YouTube and seeing… that it’s just a regular place in China.
Xinjiang also gets more foreign tourists than Spain at over 250 million a year, so you could genuinely just go there and see for yourself lol; there’s no more restrictions on travel there than any other place in China now that Covid is over.
That is a terrible video from known scumbag BadEmpanada. He spreads imperialist lies throughout.
could you possibly share a link that isn’t hosted on twitter cause I don’t log into twitter anymore as a rule.
This is a mirror. The uptime is bad, so you might need to refresh a few times or try again in 10 minutes if you get an error. https://nitter.privacydev.net/asatarbair/status/1379986675103789058
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
Cutting Through the BS on Xinjiang
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
Always the same map
Guys, this is a purely political move … china is not doing it out of the goodness of their hearts …
see their treatment of Uyghurs …
Desire to be seen as champion of Global South drives policy tilt
Yes it’s definitely not a reaction to the genocide, it’s all just a devious power play by the scheming communists who are only trying to look good by checks notes not supporting a genocide.
This is like when weird internet fascists say you’re “virtue signalling” by not being racist, except it’s a media outlet doing it to an entire country.
The only reason we would ever do the right thing is for cynical posturing, so that must be the only reason anyone else ever does the right thing too.
Honestly I think they’re actually right on this one
China trades and tries to be friendly with lots of nations that are causing as much or more death and misery than Israel
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It is simultaneously the most admirable and frustrating aspect of their foreign policy
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