For all your boycotting needs. I’m sure there’s some mods caught in lemmy.ml’s top 10 that are perfectly upstanding and reasonable people, my condolences for the cross-fire.
- !memes@lemmy.world and !memes@sopuli.xyz. Or of course communities that rule.
- !asklemmy@lemmy.world
- !linux@programming.dev. Quite small, plenty of more specific ones available. Also linux is inescapable on lemmy anyway :)
- !programmer_humor@programming.dev
- !world@lemmy.world
- !privacy@lemmy.world and maybe !privacyguides@lemmy.one, lemmy.one itself seems to be up in the air. !fedigrow@lemm.ee says !privacy@lemmy.ca. They really seem to be hiding even from another, those tinfoil hats :)
- !technology@lemmy.world
- Seems like !comicstrips@lemmy.world and !comicbooks@lemmy.world, various smaller comic-specifc communities as well as !eurographicnovels@lemm.ee
- !opensource@programming.dev
- !fuckcars@lemmy.world
(Out of the loop? Here’s a thread on lemmy.ml mods and their questionable behaviour)
Nothing is. Shaming and harassing others is not the solution. Instead we should let them advocate for whatever their ideal is. The same we let nazis have their own little „reich“ in their own homes. If they start breaking rules they get the same backlash as anyone else. Dont make it about „identity“.
Its dehumanizing and leads to hate and violence. Same as with psychopaths, narcissists, pedophiles, etc. These people are living creatures just as we are. Some of them are sick, some of them are dangerous. That does not mean they can be treated as lesser.
I acknowledge that tankies are humans with rights but I don’t acknowledge that those rights include not being called an accurate but slightly demeaning term that they don’t like. Particularly because their preferred terms for themselves are inaccurate.
Like I’m not going to stop calling fascists by that name even if they prefer to be called freedom-loving patriots or something. And I personally see the two ideologies as having a lot of similarities.
I agree with you on both accounts. Their preferred choices arent the same as pronouns and I think both authoritarian ideologies are similar and dangerous.
My point was solely that namecalling, derogatory words or slurs arent doing anything for anyone. They‘re just helping others hate us and us do unspeakable things to them and vice versa.
Dehumanizing is a precursor for genocide for a reason and that is why I think its a bad idea. Of course its just my opinion and I‘m perfectly fine if you disagree with it.
No, I appreciate you sharing your thoughts and I do not fully disagree. But I think context matters. I like tanky because it helps people understand the dangers of the ideology more than other alternatives like communist or Marxist-Leninist or whatever. Is there more danger of violence against tankies or that their ideology may grow and cause violence against others? Right now I perceive the latter to be a bigger issue, and I don’t see any real risk of harm coming to them, at least in the social circles where my words have influence.
If there was a movement that sought to do physical harm to them (outside of a defensive context) then I would weigh that appropriately in my language. The term is a tool of persuasion and I deem that persuasion more important than any risk of dehumanization, which I do oppose and recognize as harmful.
I can see your point. Sadly we have ample evidence that others have thought the same about such terms and they have a bad precedent.
So thanks for discussing this in good faith. I like the way we discussed this as it often isnt what happens with others.
Have a good one. :)
Nice discussion
But that’s what’s happening now? They broke their own rules - not merely removing comments, but also mass-banning from communities people have never commented in before, and then deleting the mod log entries afterwards. The former is not ideal but expected, the middle is… extremely excessive and warrants all of this right there alone, but the latter bumps the whole matter up significantly to be outright disingenuous, so that “that side” making its case is no longer expected to yield any results, given the not only manipulative but outright deceptive practices that have been (allegedly) proven.
I do worry about the use of a pejorative term though. In thinking about it more, I waffle back and forth between it should never be done, vs. whether someone can “earn” that badge not by holding a belief but by their actions?
We should definitely respect their contributions to the code and actually I would guess that they may legit believe that what they are doing (supporting China by suppression of alternate viewpoints, using any means necessary including ones that violate and abuse their own code of conduct) is right. But that does not make it so.
This is also far from the first time .ml has been accused of manipulating the mod logs or federation database. It’s really just the first time they’ve been caught red handed, but I have definitely found a handful of my band not showing up in mod logs for whatever reason, but didn’t get a screenshot of the original log entry.
Thank you very much for sharing that history - that really helps me understand why people are not taking this seriously. If they “feel like” they have heard it all before, then they give their rote responses from the past, not realizing how things have changed.
And too there’s GIGO, where people that should have been banned were banned, but it’s still not a terribly persuasive happenstance to convince people who cannot handle the subtleties involved between the outcome vs. the method by which it was arrived at.
Google at one point was not evil, and people warning us not to put trust in them to make Android were solidly ignored. Apple, Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, all of it was the same. And look at us now. FAAFO. Well, now we’re seeing firsthand some very few glimpses of how bad it could ultimately get, for those companies.
But for lemmy.ml we are still in the early stages, where people are saying “but they write the code” (irrelevant), and “they aren’t evil” (we have proof, NOW), and “the Fediverse is still too small, let it grow first” (a horrible idea - for one thing it won’t grow as much this way and for another if it did then having so many communities held hostage on that instance would be even more difficult to fix than now). Oh, and another one I hear quite often is “lemmy.world has problems too”, which I’m not even going to dignify with a comment about. But the big ones are “only the admins are bad - not the users” (partly true but not entirely and quite frankly… if YOU want to ignore all the warning signs then that doesn’t mean that *I* should be forced to stay behind with you as well - particularly when user-level blocks are NOT the same as instance-level ones); and “but some of the biggest communities are there” (I mean, so what, go back to Reddit if you want that but… okay it is a more fair objection tbf).
I doubt many places will defederate lemmy.ml right now… but on the other hand, I see preparations paving the way for that to happen by removing the existing roadblocks, most notably https://reddthat.com/post/20197120. Though that too will require more than a little effort reaching out to each and every single community group of mods to begin the discussion about moving their communities, one by one. This fight against authoritarianism will be long, costly, and may never truly be won - e.g. even if Lemmy.ml gets defederated, the users of hexbear, lemmygrad, and it may simply hide out as alts elsewhere? - but it seems to me to be worth fighting? Though I may need to find at least one instance that actually does defederate from those Big Three Axis powers to use in the meantime.
Thank you 🙏 for your own efforts in combating these (mal)practices.
So moderating their instance?
Where’s the evidence for this? I didn’t see that in the original post.
You are correct that it is not in the OP wording itself, but it came out as part of the discussion i.e. it is in the comment section if you want to read through that.
It is now getting significantly harder to find the comments I saw originally as lemmy’s UI decides now to hide comments by default, bc there are so very many on that thread, but to get you started, one is https://lemmy.world/comment/10461570, and another is https://lemm.ee/comment/12369094.
Even if the former issue was the result of that new feature being tested out on Lemmy.ml first (and perhaps having bugs causing issues with the mod log), the other issue remains that the modding in such occurrences is accused of being rather… “over-zealous”. As in why remove someone from a meme community, if they merely made a comment about China in a political community somewhere else on the same instance? What does someone being (potentially) incorrect in their facts have to do with being able to interact with people in a meme community that they have (reputedly) never commented in even so much as once? (presumably they must have interacted with it somehow, according to the wording of the new mod feature, so probably they did vote)
They’re still doing it now.
If you hear of an instance that has defederated from them, I would be interested to know. Otherwise, this OP at least seems to be helping prepare people for that eventuality even if not yet happening now.
I agree that if that happened (which I dont have the time nor the nerve atm) its very scary.
Most likely, as always on the internet, the truth is they have certain beliefs which are problematic and triggering, and they are programmers, not weathered social workers who can solve heated conflicts.
And then comes the most important part: they have not engaged in these alleged practices all the time so it is likely that bad coincidences came together and brought on the perfect storm on them/us.
I stand by my initial statement. We can condemn the actions, we can harshly disagree on ideology but we should refrain from dehumanizing them.
Have a good one. :)
Well, more to the point, it’s too late for us to test this all now. We’d have to spin up our own instances, watch all of the signals coming out, and compare those signals to what they used to be vs. then become. As someone did - with screenshots demonstrating the before vs. after. But we cannot now go back in time to confirm that particular instance, we’d have to catch a future occurrence.
Unless you meant the mass removals - but people have been complaining about that for quite awhile now iirc? This is not an isolated incident, by any means. For months now I have been defending Lemmy.ml to various random commenters across the Fediverse, citing how different it is from lemmygrad.ml and hexbear.net (and truthfully, the situation is quite different, here being isolated more if not exclusively to the admins), but lately I have given up b/c the collective weight of all of these actions seems indefensible to me now, as a pattern of behavior.
I actually have compassion for them - as you say they are programmers not social workers, and if they truly want their goals of FOSS acceptance and socialist world-views to be exported around the world, then they are working against their own goals but do not see that. Put another way, they may truly believe the local Chinese propaganda, but in order to export their ideals to a global audience, it needs to be tempered with a greater mix of acceptance that people exposed to more Western-style media are accustomed to (where we are allowed to watch things like videos rather than be forced to read state-sponsored bulletins telling us what to believe).
But anyway, the removal reason is far from the point - it is the manner of the removal that concerns us so greatly. But sure, start up a dialog with them if you wish - you sound like a good person to initiate such, since you go to lengths to understand their POV:-).
Btw do you have any suggestions as an alternative to “tankie”? I am not 100% convinced that it is fully “dehumanizing”, but I do see where it is somewhere along the spectrum towards that goal. Would “fascist” or “authoritarian” work better?