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We went back to the office, I don’t care because my commute is immaterial BUT now I leave my laptop there, I disassembled the workstation at home and packed it away, I will not work at home now. Teams is on my phone because I don’t put the work email on my phone and needed a way to tell my team if I will be unexpectedly delayed. I don’t open it ever though, and now we have a group text might take it off too.
If it’s outlook you can access it from “webmail.your companydomain.com/edu/org” from any browser. That way you don’t need teams on your phone either.
They have the ability to turn off the web access now. My company recently did just that - if I try to access office.com on a personal device, my log in is blocked. Works fine on a company controlled device.
I’m not sure how they tell the difference since it’s through the browser. But my guess would be something to do with the lack of all their security software they load onto company controlled computers that have hooks into everything.
You can just login at office.com on your mobile browser.
My previous workplace was like this. It didn’t get to this point, I left before it got to the point of being told you’re not allowed to wfh under any circumstances, but I was very confused why I needed to go to the office, to do my IT job, helping people with their computers remotely. I go to the office, to work remotely. Which doesn’t make any sense at all.
What is special about the office that allows me to work better/faster/more effectively/whatever? Nobody could give me an answer. I can easily run the tools at home and work fine from there, but I’m not allowed.
My specialty is in network operations, if they want my work to 100% go through their equipment and firewalls and stuff, I can make that happen. With little effort, I can setup a system on a VLAN, and VPN that VLAN to work, blocking it from all other traffic apart from the VPN. It would be the only system on that VLAN (apart from the firewall/VPN device), ensuring no possibility of cross contamination between my equipment and theirs. They even had an openVPN host already configured, which they would only need to generate a connection file for, in order for me to get it working. I can then proxy 100% of my traffic through an office system and it would be identical to being present in the office, apart from me being physically there.
At home I have a dedicated room for my computer activities, where I can close the door and lock it if required, so I can remain undisturbed.
I made sure they understood all of this but they still wanted me in the office at least 4 days a week. I’m still not sure why.
I left that job, and my new job doesn’t even have a physical office, so I’m permanently working from home.
They probably wanted to get rid of you. So instead of firing you, they imposed stupid rules to makes you leave on your own.
Oh probably. From everything I saw it was impossible for me to meet their demands.
Partway through my employment I moved to a new home, after a few months my SO got a job. She doesn’t have a license but needed to travel about 15 minutes to work (30m round trip). I was basically the only person who could, or would, help her get to work. I worked 9-5, her shift was 2:30 to 10:30.
For a while, my brother would drive her to work and I would drive her home, even that was stressful, because I’d wake up at 6:30 to shower and get ready to leave by 8AM so I can be at work for 9, then I had to stay up to bring her home, which she wasn’t out at 10:30 promptly every day, so I’d frequently get home after 11:30. Going to bed at, or after midnight, to wake up by 6:30 AM, five days a week isn’t fun, even at four days in the office per week, it was not great.
Thought-out this time I was asking for more wfh, since then I can at least sleep from midnight to 8 AM or so. They wouldn’t budge.
My brother ended up having a medical issue that caused him to be unable to drive her to work, so I told my employer I had to work from home, since I have to take care of getting her both to, and from work, and that, at most, the situation would last around 10-12 months (she was working on her driver’s license, and that’s the minimum waiting/learning time for new drivers, before they can drive without a chaperone); I also informed them that I could attend the office once per week, since she had one weekday off per week as part of her shift rotation. They “compromised” by basically telling me to follow their schedule or be laid off. Their schedule was: in office every day from 9-1. Travel home between 1 and 2pm, and do what’s needed to get my SO to work. Once I’m done that, I can work from home when I return from dropping her off (usually 2:30 or 3 PM to 5 PM or so… Whatever our quitting time was), with one day (her day off) fully in office, and one day fully from home. So 3 of 5 days was this insane in-office then drive home and finish at home thing, one day was fully remote, and one day was fully in office.
Needless to say, I burned out fast. Got a note from my doctor saying I was disabled (he didn’t specify why, but if push came to shove it would be something mental health related, he never needed to AFAIK), and I wasn’t able to work right now, and currently the recovery time needed was unknown. So I went on disability.
I also want to mention that through all the half day nonsense, they expected me to log 6.5 hours in their time tracking software, which is something I struggle with at the best of times. When I’m stressed, the first thing that suffers is my ability to correctly log and account for my time in any system. So I had 4 hours in the morning to work from the office on my “split days” (as I called them), plus, maybe 2.5 hours at most during my work from home time. Totalling 6.5 hours. I couldn’t so much as take a shit or I would fall behind on my time tracking. Normally over an 8 hour shift, the 1.5 hours of missing time in the day would be for breaks/lunch. It’s hard to take lunch when I’m barely able to make it home in an hour, and barely able to get to/from her work in 30 minutes. I usually work through lunch because I tend to have time where I have no idea what I was doing, so I can’t really account for it in the time tracker. With the 1.5 hour block of driving in the middle of my day, plus all the distractions and unaccounted time I know I’ll accrue from co-workers pulling me away from my work to ask asinine questions about things that don’t have a presence in the time tracking system (all ticket based, and they would ask me about prospective projects that wouldn’t have a ticket for months), I knew that what they were asking as an impossible task.
After I felt up to the task of returning to that insanity, instead of keeping my seat warm for me, they laid me off before I was set to return to work. I only felt up to it because it would have only been a matter of a few months before my SO was able to take her driver’s test to be able to drive solo, and after 6 months of being off I wasn’t suicidal from the stress anymore, but the bills were starting to pile up.
I was able to determine that they hired a new person in the same role I had, who was on probation at the time when I wanted to return.
I’ll let you conclude what you want from that. I’ll legally bound not to speak poorly of the company, or what happened after my layoff. Everything I’ve said here is simply the facts of the matter.
In any case, after some thought, I’m glad I don’t work with people who would force me into that kind of position for a paycheque. I have a new job now and I’m slowly paying off any accumulated bills from my time disabled and/or laid off. The new company, as I believe I’ve mentioned, is entirely wfh, and I’m certain if I ended up in a similar spot, they would be vastly more empathetic to my plight. I’m even earning a small amount more per year, not enough to write home about, but it’s still a bigger number than I was given at the last place. I’m happy where I am, and I’m largely not stressed, apart from the normal stresses of my job. I no longer need to pay for gas to get to the office, nor parking, since the previous job was located in a nearby city in the downtown area, with no free parking for employees, so I had to get paid public parking out of my own pocket. I estimate the change will save me around $6000/yr or more. On top of my small bump in pay, I should have a bit less than $10k/yr more money to myself. Right now all of that is sunk into repayments, but long term, its basically free money.
If you work in the US, NDAs tied to severance are generally illegal.
Even so, I gave my last employer the benefit of silence for the amount of time my severance would have covered in regular salary. That time is now past.
Not in the USA, I’m not sure that we have a similar law. Any agreement that may or may not have resulted from the above story, which I cannot confirm nor deny, would have been examined by a legal professional whom is familiar with local laws and if such an error were to have been included in such a document, they would have surely pointed it out.
I’m not saying that’s what happened, but if it did, I certainly would have had any such agreement looked at by a professional who is familiar with the laws to the point of knowing if such a thing were not enforceable.
I wish I could say more specifically what happened, including my opinions, or name and shame the company involved but I am compelled to not disclose any such information. I also cannot elaborate on why or how I am limited on what I can disclose.
I feel like I’m walking a tightrope. The chances that someone is going to even care enough to trace my username to my identity, then do something about it, is pretty slim, even if I were to disclose everything, and name and shame as I would love to do… But I’m more honorable than most I suppose.
Or a “constructive dismissal”.
I’ve worked for numerous enterprises since the 90’s.
None of them have been this idiotic. All of them implemented secure channels. Remember SecurID cards for dial up connections?
Yup, my work pulled the same Bullshit. I can work from home and we all worked from home through COVID… But now suddenly I can’t
So, there’s been a few times where the power’s gone out or something has happened that needs us at a remote location. They send the team home. The rest of the guys willingly go. I stay back and remind them that “gee, sorry. You guys have made it abundantly clear that I can’t work from home. All those times I had to take personal time… So yeah, no. I’ll just hang out here I guess until everything comes back up 🤷♂️”
Makes me think that with the hybrid they expect to have the best of both worlds, while in fact it will likely be the opposite.
Besides, with a mandatory fixed amount of days per quarter it gets soooo bullshit, it’s not hybrid it’s just barely glorified office work
Especially when the “hybrid” model involves more days in office than at home.
I guess execs don’t work when they’re at home and can’t handle not getting distracted, so they just assume the same for everyone.
Fuck yeah!
It’s sad that this is considered malicious at all. Seriously, either working from home is a risk for your company or it isn’t, there’s nothing in between.
Well u see your employer reserves the right to always be right!
That’s the benefit of being “leadership”
What I need right now supercedes anything I’ve ever said or anything on paper
This is such an odd restriction for IT staff. Normally HR gives you a form to sign agreeing to working remotely sometimes and having company data on your phone because you know, servers are meant to stay on all the time? It must be nice living in a world where nothing bad happens after hours.
On the other extreme, 24/7 operations have redundancy.
A friend of mine explained that being an Emergency Medicine physician is a great job for work life balance, despite the fact that he often has to work ridiculous shifts, because he never has to take any work home with him. An Emergency Room is a 24/7 operation, so whenever he’s at home, some other doctor is responsible for whatever happens. So he gets to relax and never think about work when he’s not at work and not on call.
not. the. point. listen carefully and you can hear the whoosh of the argument which is being made in the attached screenshot.
working from home for this tech, is the same as having to schlep into the office, all their work is done remotely, as in not in front of the client computers or servers, but from their workstation. doesn’t matter where their workstation is, either in down the hall in an office building, in their home, or timbuktu
having requested to work from home, and having been denied, this tech is now arguing that “working from home” isn’t considered as good as working from the office, so, if it’s not considered as good, the employer shouldn’t ever be asking them to do it
it’s not going to work out for the tech, obviously, but that’s the argument they are making
In a sane world, they give you a company phone when you are on reserve duty and they agree to pay compensation for being on reserve. Why would you agree to work for free?
It really saddens to me see how many managers out there treat their subordinates terribly, and then act surprised when their subordinates do the same - as though employees are meant to greatful for their terrible treatment
Does ring true dunnit?
Sometimes people use “respect” to mean “treating someone like a person” and sometimes they use “respect” to mean “treating someone like an authority”
and sometimes people who are used to being treated like an authority say “if you won’t respect me I won’t respect you” and they mean “if you won’t treat me like an authority I won’t treat you like a person”
and they think they’re being fair but they aren’t, and it’s not okay.
I recently was recently reprimanded for using the term “subordinates”. I was informed that term has fallen out of favor. Direct Reports is the proper way to say it these days.
Honestly calling someone a “direct report” sounds even more dehumanising. At least calling someone a “subordinate” acknowledges that you’re belittling their existence. A “direct report” sounds like a piece of paper.
What about indirect reports?
That’s who you are to all the people who aren’t your boss but think they can tell you what to do anyway.
Or just your direct reports’ direct reports.
Fair enough. Subordinate is the term I’ve always heard used. Direct reports just sounds like the sugar coated version to me.
Oh yeah it’s totally the sugar coated version. It’s funny because I was only using the term “subordinates” because that is what the software platform I was training on calls “direct reports”.
Sounds good to me, I’ve never gotten in trouble for indirectreportination.
I don’t think it’s this “all rich jerks own commercial real estate” thing that everyone going on about. I get the feeling it’s more about the managerial/director types. The ones who are maybe well off but maybe not quite rich. My director owns a 150,000 tesla, but I don’t think he’s near well off enough to own an office building.
Anyway, at a certain level and upwards, all you do is meet and talk to people all day. They value face to face communication because that’s a more effective meeting, and builds more rapport with the members.
That’s okay with me, but is there at least one meeting that requires me? Only having managers in the office could allow one to have an office ten times smaller, and no other people are needed there anyway (or live in a thousand miles radius from the office, since all the managers live in the costly city in the costly state, and the most of others are not even in the States)
They value face to face communication because that’s a more effective meeting, and builds more rapport with the members.
More effective… At what? Are you the one who schedules meetings that could have been avoided with a 3 sentence email?
I think it’s more about manager capability. A person who manages IT, for example, but has little idea what that entails will want people in the office. They have no idea if a given ticket should take 3 hours or 3 days to resolve, so it’s easier to just have their people in the office where they can look at them and verify that they are, in fact, sitting at a computer.
The ideal work environment for me, and I think most people, is one where you’re judged based on what you do and how well you do it, while details like when you do it and where you are when you do it get left to your discretion. Managing someone like that requires skill and knowledge in what they’re doing though.
It’s astonishing.
The capitalists know full well we’re more productive working remotely, but their need for control has proven to be stronger than their insatiable greed anyway.
Board rooms have a lot of people who are heavily invested in commercial real estate.
Also a fair point.
Just more proof that cruelty is the point. They’ve known since the 70s that they’d be richer than they are if they would pay thriving wages and eliminate poverty. They want the suffering more than the money.
It’s still greed. They want to justify the mobey they’ve wasted in useless office spaces.
Fair point
They would be richer, but by “allowing” working class people to have a thriving life means the power gap between us and them wouldn’t be as big. People could organize and overthrow them, so they have to keep us fighting amongst ourselves for scraps.
The cruelty is the point.
As some in IT. If my company ever does this. I’m doing the same thing. Genius play.
As funny as this is, I’m quite certain if somebody actually tried this in the real world they’d get fired. At will employment means they don’t even have to tell you why you got fired. They’ll just wait a couple of weeks or a month and tell you goodbye.
The employee can still sue. There’s a reason why others say to keep documentation of everything in situations like this. While they don’t have to tell you why you’re fired, if you sue, they still have to provide adaquate reasoning. Can’t really say "I just don’t like the guy anymore’ and have that be sufficient.
There’s no way for us to know who’s really in the right here since we don’t know what the specifics of his employment agreement are. We can just agree that the employer is wrong, and stupid. Why piss off employees that actually do the work?
That’s not true at all in many countries. You can’t just fire someone for no reason. It doesn’t have to be a good reason but you need a reason. Also if someone is fired because of something that is protected under law like pregnancy they can come back and sue.
True. Sorry should have specified in the US they can just say we are letting you go and you’re done. Which as far as I’m concerned is basically a catch all statement of “we aren’t going to tell you why, we are just firing you”.
You can’t do that in the US. They can make up a excuse but they can’t fire someone for no reason
I worked for a company that trained me that “right to work” meant I could fire someone and tell them it was because I didn’t like the color of their shoes. I suppose that’s an excuse or reason but at that point is there really any difference?
Right to work means they can’t be required to join a union. They / you are thinking of “at will employment”. You may get this confused because some states pass them together.
I can’t believe people have work apps on their personal devices. Delete that shit!
No matter what app it is, if employers require one to be used on a smartphone, they are legally obligated to provide you with a work phone. If they refuse, they are legally obligated to provide reimbursement for your personal mobile plan. This can be as simple as $5 or $10 added monthly to a paycheck, or as detailed as actual usage down to the kilobyte.
Even if it’s as simple as clocking in and out. If they won’t provide a phone or reimburse, they must have some other method to complete the task. Whether it be a computer or paper. Failing that, they are not upholding the law of providing you tools necessary to complete your job. Which means if they terminate you for any of the above under “not able to do your job”, it is retaliation for you requiring them to do their job. You could potentially win a suit against them.
My employer provides us with a “tech allowance” as a bonus every month
It’s not enough to buy a barely functional work laptop, but you can “buy a laptop” through them, and then forfeit the bonus until it’s “paid off”
I’m kinda awful with money, so I pretty much need every cent I can get. That bonus goes towards keeping my head above water in the debt trap I’m in.
So my “work computer” which requires their
spywareantivirus to be installed is a virtual machine. It’s been two years and no complaints so far. Great antivirus.Wow I didn’t even know this.ty
Reimbursement for a mobile plan? If I need to use a special authenticator app to login to my work computer, and the app is fully offline (and I only need to use it at the office where I have Wi-fi anyway, if I needed it, but I don’t), then what does a mobile plan have to do with anything? I could use it on a phone without a SIM card, or a tablet that can’t have one.
My examples are the common scenarios. Apps typically use data. Even if in your case data isn’t used, your employer is still required to provide you with the tools necessary to complete your job. It’s as simple as that.
You said “No matter what app it is” which is the point of my confusion. So you actually meant “apps that use data”, that’s fair enough, thank you for the clarification.
your employer is still required to provide you with the tools necessary to complete your job
Yeah, that’s what I thought, that the employer is required to provide a work phone if they require the usage of an app. But you are saying they can refuse as long as they reimburse data, which doesn’t even help if the app doesn’t use data. How is that “refusal of a legal obligation” working?
they are legally obligated to provide you with a work phone. If they refuse
This is the part that I’m not getting. So are they legally obligated or are they allowed to refuse like you say. It can’t be both ways.
Just look at it as wear and tear. Doesn’t matter how miniscule it may be it’s still eating up your storage and battery life in addition to battery charge. Sure you could charge at work too for battery charge but as miniscule as it is it’s still killing your battery life.
Also, don’t give corporations any leeway because they WILL take advantage of the employee given the chance. For every single rule and regulation that helps the employee someone had to spill blood to achieve it.
That’s what I think, which is why I’m asking icedterminal where did they get the info that the employer can refuse to provide a phone, it doesn’t seem right to me.
It doesn’t matter if it’s apps that use data or apps that don’t use data. If your employer requires you to install an app on your personal phone, you can refuse. It is your legal right. If you choose to exercise your legal rights, your employer must provide you with an alternative method that doesn’t involve your personal phone. Whatever they choose.
If you agree to installing a work related app on your personal phone, you must be compensated. If they refuse to compensate, you’re back to square one. They must provide you alternatives.
If your employer refuses to supply you with the tools to complete your job and/or refuse to compensate personal phone use for work related reasons, they are breaking the law. If they fire you for exercising your rights, it’s unlawful termination.
Here’s an example: My employer started requiring 2FA for the computer logins. They wanted me to install an app by Cisco. I said no. You can provide a locked down phone that can be used for the sole purpose of 2FA. They declined as that isn’t in their budget and “unnecessary”. They later came back with a little keychain that’s bound to my account. I press a button on the keychain and get the 2FA code. I can do my job and they did their job and gave me the tools to do so.
Ok, so it’s not that they can refuse to provide a device, it’s that if you voluntarily agree to use your personal device, then they have to provide compensation (for the data, etc.). Your original comment said they can refuse to provide a device, hence my confusion.
No, they can still refuse to provide a device as my original comment states. Since my employer refused to do so, they came up with an alternative without any additional input from me. They completely side stepped the app requirement by using a little key chain once they reached out to Cisco. Your employer has options. They have to find out what works best to make sure you can do the job they have hired you to do.
I have two phones. A personal one and one provided by my company. I like being able to turn off my work phone when on holiday, etc and keep my personal life separate.
I do know a lot of people who sold their personal phones when given a work phone and use it for both. Saves some money I guess but no thanks.
I also know people who have two phones but install all the work apps on their personal phones to make it easier for them. No thanks!
I’m one of the “company-provided-phone-only” folks. Thankfully, I work for a pretty decent employer who has never abused that in the nearly 10 years I’ve worked there. But I realize that’s a pretty rare privilege.
It is wild to me, even as I have one work app on my phone. It’s only there because it allows me to clock in and out, and my personal phone is significantly higher spec’d than the work provided phone.
Even so, I cannot be contacted via this app and cannot perform work with it outside of the geo-restricted area.
I have slack in it, because I don’t like walking around with two phones, but I have it configured to stop notifying after hours. Also worth noting that I do have a phone from the company, it’s just that I find it cumbersome to walk around with two phones.
Same here. O365 and ticketing app.
O365 is shut up during off-time and the ticketing system doesnt have notifications.
I would probably take a 2nd phone but the hassle of keeping track of and charging both is too inconvenient for me.This is me, too. I run a dual Sim on my phone for this reason. I’ve always been good at ignoring things after hours unless motivated by self interest.
I know somebody who does this and accidentally racked up a £3,500 phone bill while on holiday. He was accidentally using the wrong SIM for data.
That goes into the work profile of my android phone and that profile of switched off after clocking out. Simple as that, I don’t have to carry two phones and get my peace after hours. And my company respects my free time which also helps s lot.
my company respects my free time
Well that doesn’t sound like a recipe for anyone becoming a billionaire from your labour
Right now I am on vacation, my work phone stays at home with an empty battery.
They still have my private number if it is an absolute disaster at work and they need my help, but untill sunday evening I won’t even charge my work phone, let alone check it for messages/calls.
Work apps stay on the work phone, the ONLY exception to that rule I will ever make is work MFA apps.
But I’d sooner get a new separate phone for that if I don’t get a company phone.
Re MFA, I’ve been using a hardware key and it’s so much better. I don’t need my phone for a single work related thing anymore, so I can just ignore it until breaks.
For me it is a convenience thing – I spend a lot of time working from home and sometimes it’s nice to just be able to grab my phone and join a meeting while I’m sitting on the couch or w/e without needing to go over to my home office room. My team almost never does anything outside of work hours, so it’s not like I’m getting pinged or anything. In the rare situation where I get some notifications from a chat channel outside of working hours (usually someone in a different time zone) then I can just turn off work apps in Android and it goes away.
Veronica!..is that you?!
Me who likes working in a office:
People who are having a great time at work are the reason I like WFH
I personally don’t have an issue with WFH as long as you are getting work done. If you can manage yourself go for it. It is nice to see people face to face once in a while but that doesn’t mean 3 days a week.
I may be an outlier, but it feels great to be car free in a walkable city.
I don’t mind walking but sometimes the distances are a but far. I do know a lot of people who ride bikes. Bikes has the benefit of being small and having a place to put a bag. It also probably has to do with air quality as in some places the air is bad.
I couldn’t have done it if I stayed in the states. No judgment on anyone who lives in a structurally car dependent area and doesn’t have a good alternative
Then go to the office, don’t be angry if others don’t go
Weird that you’d have to be available outside of work hours
“You are not allowed to work from home unless we want you working from home” is basically their slogan. It’s so funny how these companies are ok with upper management working from home, or having remote locations in India where they work from home, or when it comes to working overtime/after hours from home. But, can’t do it on a day to day basis. Horrible companies.
