Eg you separated the bones from the brain in your example. If you didn’t have bones, you wouldn’t have blood. Bones make your blood. If you didn’t have blood, your brain wouldn’t get oxygen. You can’t separate these systems, they are all beautifully connected.
You can lose a lot of body parts and still maintain your sense of self (in fact, you’re constantly losing hair and skin cells without even noticing it), but taking drugs that change your brain chemistry the right way predictably leads to ego death.
I don’t know that I’m convinced, but that feels like a strong argument to me. I’m having trouble putting into words what I actually believe about the residence of the self, but I hope this is clear.
I think the self is a quorum of mind and body. It’s not specifically in a bodily location, but it exists as long as enough of the brain and body are functioning and together. If some parts are missing, it’s slightly different, but it’s still legitimately the self. When there isn’t a quorum, there’s still the potential for a sense of self, but it will be different.
If I lose a finger (due to infection or something non-traumatizing in itself), it would probably suck immensely, but not change my personality to the degree that people who know me would think of me as a different person before and after. If I lost part of my tongue, it might (I’m a passionate linguist; for an equally passionate violinist, it might be a different story). If I lost both legs and a hand, I think I would go through some immense personality changes that would make those who know me think I was a different person before.
This isn’t true. We have multiple cases of people with very low brain volume who acted pretty much normal. We have cases of people losing limbs and other body parts who have parts of their brain die and/or reconfigure (including conditions where soldiers get their arm blown off and feel like their arm is still there gripping the grenade etc). Hell, even people who lose weight or get surgery lose/change their sense of self, or even a bad haircut. Someone like Stephen Hawking definitely felt like a different person before versus after their illness. If you don’t think a physical disability gives you ego death in a longer route, idk what to tell you. Spend some time at a hospice, go to a paralympics.
Your brain IS your body. Everything your body does affects your brain. They are not separate systems. That you’ve been propagandized to believe otherwise is so you’ll fight in a war and not mind dismemberment. Also the existence of a soul or self outside of a physical body is so you don’t mind dying. We have no proof things things are separate or that there’s a soul.
Your finger has corresponding neurons in your brain that will die if it goes missing. It’s not so laissez faire. Yes, brains are neuroplastic and will heal over time, but what happens to your body very much happens to your brain. Including stuff you see, which is why seizures can be triggered by lights and why people can develop PTSD from videos they see online.
Is there a scientific consensus on the location of the sense of self? I ask because I’m approaching this as a philosophical perspective problem, and as I alluded, am not convinced by either side, but you don’t seem to be approaching it like that.
I think philosophy is nonsense if it is not based in real world examples. Hence why philosophy and math pair so well together- small exceptions prove the rationale is wrong, or might show how consistent it is. I wish more scientists and engineers learned philosophy for this reason.
Brains don’t work exactly like how they taught in middle school. Your sense of self involves certain structures in the brain, but it’s a system or network of electricity running through several parts that makes it. That system of parts is affected by your body and external stimuli. So yes your very sense of self is affected by your body including your vagus nerve and microorganisms in your gut. Even something like anaphylaxis from an allergen touching your skin can cause your brain to go haywire.
It also depends what you mean by sense of self. Eg people can look in a mirror and not recognize themselves, but still have a very stable internal set of responses we’d call a “personality.”
You’re just coming on a little strong with saying I’m wrong and brainwashed for being open to multiple perspectives on something for which there are multiple perspectives. I’m talking about what parts of a person give a person their personality, in their own and in the eyes of others.
I agree that some parts of a brain are unnecessary for this: Alzheimer’s isn’t suspected the second it starts affecting the brain. I believe this is also certainly true of some parts of the body (hairs and skin cells). Therefore, I believe there’s a critical mass of body and brain that is required in varying compositions for different people.
In a violinist, the finger might affect how they are able to express themselves in a way that changes their personality. It might also make any given non-violinist more withdrawn, insecure, or wary, but it might not. It would absolutely affect anyone’s brain, but that doesn’t necessarily translate to affecting their personality.
The difference between saying “you’ve been brainwashed” and “we’re all constantly subject to propaganda which affects all of our perceptions and none of us is immune” is very large. In the former, we eventually get to a conversation where I aggressively overshare and you reveal nothing, as below. In the latter, we could have kept it impersonal and talked about the nature of the propaganda affecting us.
My perceptions come from a combination of my experiences and beliefs, not more subject to brainwashing than anyone else.
The experiences that led to this belief were probably the multiple body parts my mother lost during my childhood (a decade of aggressive cancer and more aggressive treatment). A certain kind of pragmatism was instilled in me about what you actually need to keep going, and why that’s important (also we’re all autistic, which almost certainly has something to do with our attitudes about this).
So yes, some people have an altered sense of self after a bad haircut, but I do not. My head has been shaved and worn every type of mullet (I grow it out and then buzz it to donate every couple of years).
I once had a broken orbital, which made it painful to smile. I am a smiley person, so it was an adjustment (which means brain changes), but I started flaring my nostrils to my friends instead as an inside joke, and retained all of my smiliness after the orbital healed(not personality changes). I have had a pact with my sisters that we’ll get a mastectomy the second we have a tumor since before I had breasts, and I will keep it without hesitation. Hell, if my sisters both got breast cancer, that might be enough without my own symptoms (they’re older than I am, so I tend to get their health issues on a delay).
Perhaps a finger would make me a more withdrawn person, there’s no way to know until it happens. I don’t think I’d suffer significant long term personality changes though.
I never said “you’ve been brainwashed.” That was your strawman. Quote where I used “brainwashed.” I literally said “propagandized.” Idk why you acted like I said otherwise.
Have you ever worn a costume or played a part in a play? It absolutely affects your ““self”” to wear different haircuts etc. Wearing a George Washington wig feels different than Morticia Addams.
If you had cancer, did you go to those support meetings? Do you remember the type of speech that happens around getting better? A lot of that is to instill a survivor sense of self - the cancer diagnosis itself causes people to feel like they are dying as part of their identity often (not trying to mansplain cancer here, sorry) so these support groups help with countering that identity with a different one.
Yes, souls and something being separate from our physical shells feels comforting because it means we can conquer death.
There is no mind/body split imo.
Eg you separated the bones from the brain in your example. If you didn’t have bones, you wouldn’t have blood. Bones make your blood. If you didn’t have blood, your brain wouldn’t get oxygen. You can’t separate these systems, they are all beautifully connected.
You can lose a lot of body parts and still maintain your sense of self (in fact, you’re constantly losing hair and skin cells without even noticing it), but taking drugs that change your brain chemistry the right way predictably leads to ego death.
I don’t know that I’m convinced, but that feels like a strong argument to me. I’m having trouble putting into words what I actually believe about the residence of the self, but I hope this is clear.
I think the self is a quorum of mind and body. It’s not specifically in a bodily location, but it exists as long as enough of the brain and body are functioning and together. If some parts are missing, it’s slightly different, but it’s still legitimately the self. When there isn’t a quorum, there’s still the potential for a sense of self, but it will be different.
If I lose a finger (due to infection or something non-traumatizing in itself), it would probably suck immensely, but not change my personality to the degree that people who know me would think of me as a different person before and after. If I lost part of my tongue, it might (I’m a passionate linguist; for an equally passionate violinist, it might be a different story). If I lost both legs and a hand, I think I would go through some immense personality changes that would make those who know me think I was a different person before.
This isn’t true. We have multiple cases of people with very low brain volume who acted pretty much normal. We have cases of people losing limbs and other body parts who have parts of their brain die and/or reconfigure (including conditions where soldiers get their arm blown off and feel like their arm is still there gripping the grenade etc). Hell, even people who lose weight or get surgery lose/change their sense of self, or even a bad haircut. Someone like Stephen Hawking definitely felt like a different person before versus after their illness. If you don’t think a physical disability gives you ego death in a longer route, idk what to tell you. Spend some time at a hospice, go to a paralympics.
Your brain IS your body. Everything your body does affects your brain. They are not separate systems. That you’ve been propagandized to believe otherwise is so you’ll fight in a war and not mind dismemberment. Also the existence of a soul or self outside of a physical body is so you don’t mind dying. We have no proof things things are separate or that there’s a soul.
Your finger has corresponding neurons in your brain that will die if it goes missing. It’s not so laissez faire. Yes, brains are neuroplastic and will heal over time, but what happens to your body very much happens to your brain. Including stuff you see, which is why seizures can be triggered by lights and why people can develop PTSD from videos they see online.
Is there a scientific consensus on the location of the sense of self? I ask because I’m approaching this as a philosophical perspective problem, and as I alluded, am not convinced by either side, but you don’t seem to be approaching it like that.
I think philosophy is nonsense if it is not based in real world examples. Hence why philosophy and math pair so well together- small exceptions prove the rationale is wrong, or might show how consistent it is. I wish more scientists and engineers learned philosophy for this reason.
Brains don’t work exactly like how they taught in middle school. Your sense of self involves certain structures in the brain, but it’s a system or network of electricity running through several parts that makes it. That system of parts is affected by your body and external stimuli. So yes your very sense of self is affected by your body including your vagus nerve and microorganisms in your gut. Even something like anaphylaxis from an allergen touching your skin can cause your brain to go haywire.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7959111/
It also depends what you mean by sense of self. Eg people can look in a mirror and not recognize themselves, but still have a very stable internal set of responses we’d call a “personality.”
You’re just coming on a little strong with saying I’m wrong and brainwashed for being open to multiple perspectives on something for which there are multiple perspectives. I’m talking about what parts of a person give a person their personality, in their own and in the eyes of others.
I agree that some parts of a brain are unnecessary for this: Alzheimer’s isn’t suspected the second it starts affecting the brain. I believe this is also certainly true of some parts of the body (hairs and skin cells). Therefore, I believe there’s a critical mass of body and brain that is required in varying compositions for different people.
In a violinist, the finger might affect how they are able to express themselves in a way that changes their personality. It might also make any given non-violinist more withdrawn, insecure, or wary, but it might not. It would absolutely affect anyone’s brain, but that doesn’t necessarily translate to affecting their personality.
Where do you think your beliefs come from?
The difference between saying “you’ve been brainwashed” and “we’re all constantly subject to propaganda which affects all of our perceptions and none of us is immune” is very large. In the former, we eventually get to a conversation where I aggressively overshare and you reveal nothing, as below. In the latter, we could have kept it impersonal and talked about the nature of the propaganda affecting us.
My perceptions come from a combination of my experiences and beliefs, not more subject to brainwashing than anyone else.
The experiences that led to this belief were probably the multiple body parts my mother lost during my childhood (a decade of aggressive cancer and more aggressive treatment). A certain kind of pragmatism was instilled in me about what you actually need to keep going, and why that’s important (also we’re all autistic, which almost certainly has something to do with our attitudes about this).
So yes, some people have an altered sense of self after a bad haircut, but I do not. My head has been shaved and worn every type of mullet (I grow it out and then buzz it to donate every couple of years).
I once had a broken orbital, which made it painful to smile. I am a smiley person, so it was an adjustment (which means brain changes), but I started flaring my nostrils to my friends instead as an inside joke, and retained all of my smiliness after the orbital healed(not personality changes). I have had a pact with my sisters that we’ll get a mastectomy the second we have a tumor since before I had breasts, and I will keep it without hesitation. Hell, if my sisters both got breast cancer, that might be enough without my own symptoms (they’re older than I am, so I tend to get their health issues on a delay).
Perhaps a finger would make me a more withdrawn person, there’s no way to know until it happens. I don’t think I’d suffer significant long term personality changes though.
I never said “you’ve been brainwashed.” That was your strawman. Quote where I used “brainwashed.” I literally said “propagandized.” Idk why you acted like I said otherwise.
Have you ever worn a costume or played a part in a play? It absolutely affects your ““self”” to wear different haircuts etc. Wearing a George Washington wig feels different than Morticia Addams.
If you had cancer, did you go to those support meetings? Do you remember the type of speech that happens around getting better? A lot of that is to instill a survivor sense of self - the cancer diagnosis itself causes people to feel like they are dying as part of their identity often (not trying to mansplain cancer here, sorry) so these support groups help with countering that identity with a different one.
Yes, souls and something being separate from our physical shells feels comforting because it means we can conquer death.