Well, for point 2, they were kind of right. It’s mostly a self fulfilling prophecy, but when a sizable chunk of your voting block says “take this position if you want my vote” and then you take the opposite position it really shouldn’t come as a surprise if you subsequently lose the election. That 100% was on Harris.
Whether Harris would have been better than Trump (for Gaza) is perhaps a more interesting question. Ultimately Israel is going to be using their own troops for this not US troops because US troops aren’t going to go along with gunning down unarmed civilians in mass the way the Israeli troops will. Whether it’s Trump or Harris that wasn’t going to change. The biggest difference is just one of political posturing. Harris would have made disapproving statements and basically said “we’re very disappointed in Israel” while still sending the exact same weapons and funds Trump is sending. Maybe Israel would have played things more low key, maybe not, we’ll never know now. So point 1 is kind of a wash.
Point 3 is really a more abstract moral question I suppose. At what point does something cross over into “supporting genocide”. Does sending money to the Israeli government count? What about doing business with companies that do so? What about having the power to do something about it and instead choosing to do nothing? I think we can all agree that Trump absolutely supports genocide. The argument for if Harris did is far less concrete, and for people who voted for Harris (or I guess Trump for that matter) more nebulous still.
The real problem ultimately though is that none of this existed in a vacuum. If this was literally a referendum on how the US should respond to Israel that would be one thing, but that was such a tiny slice of a much bigger discussion. The biggest and most concerning of which was Trump essentially admitting that he was planning on staging a coup of the US government which meant no matter how the Gaza situation was going to play our Trump absolutely could not be let anywhere near the office of the president.
The election is over though, Harris lost because she ran a shit campaign on proven losing policy. People need to get over that and focus on actually dealing with the shit sandwich we’ve collectively been handed instead of continuing to point fingers and argue about whose fault it was.
The election is over though, Harris lost because she ran a shit campaign on proven losing policy. People need to get over that and focus on actually dealing with the shit sandwich we’ve collectively been handed instead of continuing to point fingers and argue about whose fault it was.
I mean this with all sincerity: fuck off.
Arguing that letting this and everything else happen is better than what Harris brought to the table doesn’t just get forgotten because the people who said this would be better are upset they were wrong and don’t want to be blamed.
The “winning policy” is evidently “ethnic cleansing”. That’s what came of all this, do you get that? Milquetoast ceasefire and continuing the slow push towards a two state solution lost to ethnic cleansing.
Whether it’s Trump or Harris that wasn’t going to change. The biggest difference is just one of political posturing.
Trump has already increased the weapons being sent, rolling back a Biden administration block on certain weapons. You can’t just say “no, they won’t use US troops” when we’re on an article about trump wanting to use US troops for ethnic cleansing. Why do you think Israel gets a say in what troops go in? It’s not like they can stop US if we want to send ours in. Why do you think American troops wouldn’t do these things?
We’re not at the hypothetical stage here. There have already been concrete changes in policy that are beyond “posturing”.
The real problem ultimately though is that none of this existed in a vacuum. If this was literally a referendum on how the US should respond to Israel that would be one thing, but that was such a tiny slice of a much bigger discussion.
Yes, and that’s exactly the point. Even if their policies on Gaza were exactly the same, which they very much were not, it would still be better to have voted for Harris because of so many reasons, none of which mattered to the people who swore to not vote for her over Gaza.
This is being civil about things. We’re not saying that the people who refused Harris because of Gaza are transphobic, antivax, anti-education, anti abortion, racist misogynists, even though supporting Harris evidently makes one a genocidal racist in their eyes.
Maybe if people said “you know what? Maybe I made a mistake” there wouldn’t be such animosity, but here we are. Better a mask off fascist than an imperfect compromise.
And don’t worry, I am doing what I can to deal with the shit sandwich they wanted us to have. That doesn’t keep me from having the ability, nor seeing the need for, needling people who thought that this would be better for Gaza than what Harris wanted.
That doesn’t keep me from having the ability, nor seeing the need for, needling people who thought that this would be better for Gaza than what Harris wanted.
Except you’re not doing that, you’re just being annoying and pissing off people that fucking voted for Harris for no god damn reason. The election is over, Harris lost, and now we need to deal with fucking Cheeto Mussolini and instead of doing something useful you’re spending every opportunity to bitch and moan about how everyone is getting what they deserve now. At this point I’m just going to stop reading the comments of any post about Palestine because the comment sections are all just cesspools of people wanking off about how right they were this entire time.
Harris never should have backed Israel and it along with all the other idiotic policies she pushed cost her the election just like everyone said it would. People were begging her to run on better policies and instead her campaign was “vote for me or else” which failed to convince enough people. It sucks and now we’re all suffering because of it, but as much as it’s the fault of the people that didn’t vote for her it’s even more her and the DNC’s fault for running a crap campaign. It is literally a politician’s job to convince people to vote for them, and Harris failed at her job.
If you voted for Harris you’re not the person being talked to, are you? They asked why people were mad at those that voted third party.
Why would I be mad at people who voted for Harris?
I don’t buy the whole "you’re not allowed to be mad at the voters!” thing. They had the same information I did, and decided that instead of saying “gee, the easiest thing I can do to in anyway stop the obvious bad things that could happen is to vote against trump” they did some form of “not that”.
If it’s a choice between the zoo and the crotch kicking factory, and three vote for the zoo, four for the crotch kicking, and three more couldn’t be bothered to vote, *I’m gonna be mad at the people who voted for the crotch kicking as well as the people who didn’t vote", and I’m gonna be frustrated when they say it’s the zoo’s fault for not advertising more and we need to move on and hold hands through the kicking.
Sure, but the overwhelming majority of people on here voted for Harris even if they really didn’t want to and continuing to bitch and moan about everyone that didn’t, the overwhelming majority of which aren’t even on Lemmy isn’t doing anything useful.
There seems to be this group on here that’s very black and white. During the election you weren’t allowed to say anything negative about Harris or complain about first Biden and then Harris supporting Israel or you were called a Trump supporter. Nothing short of declaring her the most perfect candidate ever satisfied them. It was fucking stupid of her to endorse Biden’s already losing platform including his support of Israel and that cost her the election. Saying it was going to cost her the election shouldn’t have been a controversial thing but to some on here it was.
It was already exhausting when it was going on during the election and it’s even more exhausting now. Harris literally doesn’t matter anymore. Whether she would have been better for Gaza or not is an entirely academic question at this point unless you’ve got a time machine (and if you do go back and convince George Washington that first past the post voting is an idiotic idea).
I just want to see discussion about what can be done to oppose Trump and help in some way Palestine, but instead it’s a non-stop parade of comments about how anyone who complained about Harris supporting Israel is terrible and this is all their fault.
As for your analogy, it’s more like the choice was between the crotch kicking factory and the anal raped without lube factory and a bunch of people complained that if they insist on being the crotch kicking factory nobody is going to want to go there. So 3 people voted for the crotch kicking factory, 4 voted for anal rape, 2 voted for the zoo, and 3 people stayed home. Then everyone who voted for the crotch kicking factory got angry and said it’s the fault of the people who voted for the zoo that anal rape won.
I’m just as frustrated that Trump won, but what I’m not is surprised. Disappointed absolutely, but not surprised. The Democrats have been failing this country for decades. People are only going to keep voting for the lesser evil that sees things getting slightly worse election after election for so long before they start thinking there’s no point.
If you really want to apportion blame for this mess the most to blame is first Trump, then the GOP, then Trump voters, then the DNC, then Harris, then 3rd party and non-voters. The DNC needed to realize decades ago that it doesn’t matter how many big corporate cheques they cash when the policies they’re adopting are turning away voters that they desperately need. Harris should have looked at the train wreck of Biden’s campaign and realized she needed to do something different. Third party voters needed to understand that with first past the post you don’t get to vote for the candidate you want, you have to vote against the candidate you don’t want.
Well, for point 2, they were kind of right. It’s mostly a self fulfilling prophecy, but when a sizable chunk of your voting block says “take this position if you want my vote” and then you take the opposite position it really shouldn’t come as a surprise if you subsequently lose the election. That 100% was on Harris.
Whether Harris would have been better than Trump (for Gaza) is perhaps a more interesting question. Ultimately Israel is going to be using their own troops for this not US troops because US troops aren’t going to go along with gunning down unarmed civilians in mass the way the Israeli troops will. Whether it’s Trump or Harris that wasn’t going to change. The biggest difference is just one of political posturing. Harris would have made disapproving statements and basically said “we’re very disappointed in Israel” while still sending the exact same weapons and funds Trump is sending. Maybe Israel would have played things more low key, maybe not, we’ll never know now. So point 1 is kind of a wash.
Point 3 is really a more abstract moral question I suppose. At what point does something cross over into “supporting genocide”. Does sending money to the Israeli government count? What about doing business with companies that do so? What about having the power to do something about it and instead choosing to do nothing? I think we can all agree that Trump absolutely supports genocide. The argument for if Harris did is far less concrete, and for people who voted for Harris (or I guess Trump for that matter) more nebulous still.
The real problem ultimately though is that none of this existed in a vacuum. If this was literally a referendum on how the US should respond to Israel that would be one thing, but that was such a tiny slice of a much bigger discussion. The biggest and most concerning of which was Trump essentially admitting that he was planning on staging a coup of the US government which meant no matter how the Gaza situation was going to play our Trump absolutely could not be let anywhere near the office of the president.
The election is over though, Harris lost because she ran a shit campaign on proven losing policy. People need to get over that and focus on actually dealing with the shit sandwich we’ve collectively been handed instead of continuing to point fingers and argue about whose fault it was.
I mean this with all sincerity: fuck off.
Arguing that letting this and everything else happen is better than what Harris brought to the table doesn’t just get forgotten because the people who said this would be better are upset they were wrong and don’t want to be blamed.
The “winning policy” is evidently “ethnic cleansing”. That’s what came of all this, do you get that? Milquetoast ceasefire and continuing the slow push towards a two state solution lost to ethnic cleansing.
Trump has already increased the weapons being sent, rolling back a Biden administration block on certain weapons. You can’t just say “no, they won’t use US troops” when we’re on an article about trump wanting to use US troops for ethnic cleansing. Why do you think Israel gets a say in what troops go in? It’s not like they can stop US if we want to send ours in. Why do you think American troops wouldn’t do these things?
We’re not at the hypothetical stage here. There have already been concrete changes in policy that are beyond “posturing”.
Yes, and that’s exactly the point. Even if their policies on Gaza were exactly the same, which they very much were not, it would still be better to have voted for Harris because of so many reasons, none of which mattered to the people who swore to not vote for her over Gaza.
This is being civil about things. We’re not saying that the people who refused Harris because of Gaza are transphobic, antivax, anti-education, anti abortion, racist misogynists, even though supporting Harris evidently makes one a genocidal racist in their eyes.
Maybe if people said “you know what? Maybe I made a mistake” there wouldn’t be such animosity, but here we are. Better a mask off fascist than an imperfect compromise.
And don’t worry, I am doing what I can to deal with the shit sandwich they wanted us to have. That doesn’t keep me from having the ability, nor seeing the need for, needling people who thought that this would be better for Gaza than what Harris wanted.
Same to you you annoying whiny git.
Except you’re not doing that, you’re just being annoying and pissing off people that fucking voted for Harris for no god damn reason. The election is over, Harris lost, and now we need to deal with fucking Cheeto Mussolini and instead of doing something useful you’re spending every opportunity to bitch and moan about how everyone is getting what they deserve now. At this point I’m just going to stop reading the comments of any post about Palestine because the comment sections are all just cesspools of people wanking off about how right they were this entire time.
Harris never should have backed Israel and it along with all the other idiotic policies she pushed cost her the election just like everyone said it would. People were begging her to run on better policies and instead her campaign was “vote for me or else” which failed to convince enough people. It sucks and now we’re all suffering because of it, but as much as it’s the fault of the people that didn’t vote for her it’s even more her and the DNC’s fault for running a crap campaign. It is literally a politician’s job to convince people to vote for them, and Harris failed at her job.
If you voted for Harris you’re not the person being talked to, are you? They asked why people were mad at those that voted third party.
Why would I be mad at people who voted for Harris?
I don’t buy the whole "you’re not allowed to be mad at the voters!” thing. They had the same information I did, and decided that instead of saying “gee, the easiest thing I can do to in anyway stop the obvious bad things that could happen is to vote against trump” they did some form of “not that”.
If it’s a choice between the zoo and the crotch kicking factory, and three vote for the zoo, four for the crotch kicking, and three more couldn’t be bothered to vote, *I’m gonna be mad at the people who voted for the crotch kicking as well as the people who didn’t vote", and I’m gonna be frustrated when they say it’s the zoo’s fault for not advertising more and we need to move on and hold hands through the kicking.
Sure, but the overwhelming majority of people on here voted for Harris even if they really didn’t want to and continuing to bitch and moan about everyone that didn’t, the overwhelming majority of which aren’t even on Lemmy isn’t doing anything useful.
There seems to be this group on here that’s very black and white. During the election you weren’t allowed to say anything negative about Harris or complain about first Biden and then Harris supporting Israel or you were called a Trump supporter. Nothing short of declaring her the most perfect candidate ever satisfied them. It was fucking stupid of her to endorse Biden’s already losing platform including his support of Israel and that cost her the election. Saying it was going to cost her the election shouldn’t have been a controversial thing but to some on here it was.
It was already exhausting when it was going on during the election and it’s even more exhausting now. Harris literally doesn’t matter anymore. Whether she would have been better for Gaza or not is an entirely academic question at this point unless you’ve got a time machine (and if you do go back and convince George Washington that first past the post voting is an idiotic idea).
I just want to see discussion about what can be done to oppose Trump and help in some way Palestine, but instead it’s a non-stop parade of comments about how anyone who complained about Harris supporting Israel is terrible and this is all their fault.
As for your analogy, it’s more like the choice was between the crotch kicking factory and the anal raped without lube factory and a bunch of people complained that if they insist on being the crotch kicking factory nobody is going to want to go there. So 3 people voted for the crotch kicking factory, 4 voted for anal rape, 2 voted for the zoo, and 3 people stayed home. Then everyone who voted for the crotch kicking factory got angry and said it’s the fault of the people who voted for the zoo that anal rape won.
I’m just as frustrated that Trump won, but what I’m not is surprised. Disappointed absolutely, but not surprised. The Democrats have been failing this country for decades. People are only going to keep voting for the lesser evil that sees things getting slightly worse election after election for so long before they start thinking there’s no point.
If you really want to apportion blame for this mess the most to blame is first Trump, then the GOP, then Trump voters, then the DNC, then Harris, then 3rd party and non-voters. The DNC needed to realize decades ago that it doesn’t matter how many big corporate cheques they cash when the policies they’re adopting are turning away voters that they desperately need. Harris should have looked at the train wreck of Biden’s campaign and realized she needed to do something different. Third party voters needed to understand that with first past the post you don’t get to vote for the candidate you want, you have to vote against the candidate you don’t want.