When did an appreciation for free speech become the exclusive domain of the Libertarians? I don’t want you to be able to unilaterally silence me, therefore I’m a Libertarian?
What are your opinions on community bans, since all your arguments apply equally to those. Let me see you rectify those positions.
Community bans are the domain of a select few individuals who are responsible for maintaining the overall state of the community. If they abuse their power then the community suffers and people should go elsewhere.
Personally, I’d rather a system where one could “subscribe” to specific moderators so that if one goes rogue people could choose to unsubscribe from their moderation actions, that would IMO be the best combination of freedom and control. But I can understand that being rather complicated to implement well and perhaps a little confusing for the users, so I’m okay with the current setup as a compromise.
When did an appreciation for free speech become the exclusive domain of the Libertarians? I don’t want you to be able to unilaterally silence me, therefore I’m a Libertarian?
Minor nitpick with your comment: there’s a semantic difference between “Libertarian” and “libertarian”, and I suspect you want the latter.
Small-l “libertarian” is used to refer to the political ideology.
Big-L “Libertarian” is used to refer to the Libertarian Party.
The same sort of convention also shows up elsewhere, like “democrat” and “Democrat”, “republican” and “Republican”, etc.
Fair enough. Either way, my basic point is that an appreciation for freedom of speech is not limited to just one particular niche political ideology or party.
So say someone is a raging bigot. You rely on regular users to flag up things that cross the line for moderators to deal with and correct the record when they lie or post stuff without context eg to provide a balanced perspective. Unless they have blocked most of the active users who would be liable to do these things.
Bear in mind that evrrything you do or say on the fediverse is public, so there is no possible way to stop someone seeing it. Likewise, because the entire system is federated, there is no way to stop an individual from replying to you. Even if the community server rejected their message their own server would be able to display it.
This works well for general discussions, but I can see where it isn’t ideal for more sensitive topics. People having those sorts of discussions should probably be using a system that is better suited to their needs.
All credit to you for advocating for needs of marginalized groups for protected spaces to communicate, but the fediverse simply isn’t the right tool for that. It’s entire philosophy, design and implementation is centered around making everything public, from posts and comments to votes and moderation actions.
Asking the fediverse, or the activitypub protocol to allow blocking a user from responding at all is rather like asking a car to be a bike. It’s just not what it is. I can’t really concieve any way of making a decentralized public forum work like that as there is no central point that can control permissions. It might be possible to design a system where communities can control membership and posting priviledges, but even then, if it’s distributed, it would take very little for a hostile instance to simply ignore any central control and display its users posts locally, leading to the same effect as if you just mute them, leaving them visible to others, albiet only on their instance or others that cooperate with it.
I think that those who are in need of a controlled system should probably be looking at a centralized system that is run and controlled by someone, or a group, that they trust. That would give them the best chance to keep discussions private, and access to read or post controlled. Read access would need to be controlled too, or their discussions can just be mirrored to a hostile server and harassment can occur there where the poster is unaware, just as if they’d muted them.
Community block lists or bans are handled at the protocol level (I think this is task that did that), and are pretty simple, in that they just tell a server not to let a particular user comment or post on a particular community. Thats straightforward enough, and as long as the user’s server obeys that, the user doesn’t get to post.
Trying to do something similar for every user becomes much more complex as it requires coordinating each user’s settings to all the relevant servers every time they change. It also leaves open the issue of what happens if a user you’ce blocked simply posts a sibling comment to yours, as you won’t see it, but the rest of the community will.
Personally, I would like to see invite only communities where posts and comments are public (it’s activitypub, so there’s no huding them), but only whitelisted users can post. I know there’s a WomensOnly community here that has a hard time stopping men wading in (I’m guilty if that, I saw an interesting postvand didn’t notice the community name, but the mods were very nice about it). I’m sure they’d like a way of vetting first time posters and commenters.
it prevents you from responding to it
it doesn’t prevent you from responding. you’re free to respond to everything else. you wouldn’t be anywhere close to being silenced.
let me rephrase, i’m open to learning about your suggestion. I don’t really understand how that’d work. It sounds kinda like bluesky blocklists, where the blocklist maintainers are effectively like cross-community mods. A user wouldn’t be banned in a given community, but if they’re in a blocklist you subscribe to then as far as you’re concerned they are (because they couldn’t see your content and you couldn’t see theirs).
if you’re talking about something more lenient then that, then I’d need to know details. but the point I was making is that I’m open to alternatives - I’m not married to reddit style blocking, I know it has problems, i just find the problems to be less severe than the lemmy style blocking muting.
Oh god, did Lemmy turn into a libertarian hellscape while I wasn’t looking?
What are your opinions on community bans, since all your arguments apply equally to those. Let me see you rectify those positions.
When did an appreciation for free speech become the exclusive domain of the Libertarians? I don’t want you to be able to unilaterally silence me, therefore I’m a Libertarian?
Community bans are the domain of a select few individuals who are responsible for maintaining the overall state of the community. If they abuse their power then the community suffers and people should go elsewhere.
Personally, I’d rather a system where one could “subscribe” to specific moderators so that if one goes rogue people could choose to unsubscribe from their moderation actions, that would IMO be the best combination of freedom and control. But I can understand that being rather complicated to implement well and perhaps a little confusing for the users, so I’m okay with the current setup as a compromise.
Minor nitpick with your comment: there’s a semantic difference between “Libertarian” and “libertarian”, and I suspect you want the latter.
Small-l “libertarian” is used to refer to the political ideology.
Big-L “Libertarian” is used to refer to the Libertarian Party.
The same sort of convention also shows up elsewhere, like “democrat” and “Democrat”, “republican” and “Republican”, etc.
Fair enough. Either way, my basic point is that an appreciation for freedom of speech is not limited to just one particular niche political ideology or party.
Sure, no dispute there.
How is “not letting you see what I personally wrote” consider to be “unilaterally silencing you” ?
What a mind bogglingly disingenuous response.
I’m not saying that the reddit style block is good.
I’m saying that the current “mute” style block hangs vulnerable people out to dry.
I’m ok trying something else, like maybe what you suggested.
So say someone is a raging bigot. You rely on regular users to flag up things that cross the line for moderators to deal with and correct the record when they lie or post stuff without context eg to provide a balanced perspective. Unless they have blocked most of the active users who would be liable to do these things.
Bear in mind that evrrything you do or say on the fediverse is public, so there is no possible way to stop someone seeing it. Likewise, because the entire system is federated, there is no way to stop an individual from replying to you. Even if the community server rejected their message their own server would be able to display it.
This works well for general discussions, but I can see where it isn’t ideal for more sensitive topics. People having those sorts of discussions should probably be using a system that is better suited to their needs.
but the argument that I’m seeing is “its bad to even try to hinder it”
I know that the fediverse creates technical difficulties regarding privacy, but we can’t even make a best effort so its not trivial for harassers?
All credit to you for advocating for needs of marginalized groups for protected spaces to communicate, but the fediverse simply isn’t the right tool for that. It’s entire philosophy, design and implementation is centered around making everything public, from posts and comments to votes and moderation actions.
Asking the fediverse, or the activitypub protocol to allow blocking a user from responding at all is rather like asking a car to be a bike. It’s just not what it is. I can’t really concieve any way of making a decentralized public forum work like that as there is no central point that can control permissions. It might be possible to design a system where communities can control membership and posting priviledges, but even then, if it’s distributed, it would take very little for a hostile instance to simply ignore any central control and display its users posts locally, leading to the same effect as if you just mute them, leaving them visible to others, albiet only on their instance or others that cooperate with it.
I think that those who are in need of a controlled system should probably be looking at a centralized system that is run and controlled by someone, or a group, that they trust. That would give them the best chance to keep discussions private, and access to read or post controlled. Read access would need to be controlled too, or their discussions can just be mirrored to a hostile server and harassment can occur there where the poster is unaware, just as if they’d muted them.
communities arent decentralized, though.
so why not have a community that can control who can comment on what posts?
the privacy part may be a struggle with the way activitypub works, but i dont see why blocking would be, since community banlists already work.
Community block lists or bans are handled at the protocol level (I think this is task that did that), and are pretty simple, in that they just tell a server not to let a particular user comment or post on a particular community. Thats straightforward enough, and as long as the user’s server obeys that, the user doesn’t get to post.
Trying to do something similar for every user becomes much more complex as it requires coordinating each user’s settings to all the relevant servers every time they change. It also leaves open the issue of what happens if a user you’ce blocked simply posts a sibling comment to yours, as you won’t see it, but the rest of the community will.
Personally, I would like to see invite only communities where posts and comments are public (it’s activitypub, so there’s no huding them), but only whitelisted users can post. I know there’s a WomensOnly community here that has a hard time stopping men wading in (I’m guilty if that, I saw an interesting postvand didn’t notice the community name, but the mods were very nice about it). I’m sure they’d like a way of vetting first time posters and commenters.
It prevents me from responding to it.
I can see it either way, because they’re public posts.
I suspect not, because what I’m suggesting would entail an even looser set of restrictions on who can do what than what’s already in place.
it prevents you from responding to it
it doesn’t prevent you from responding. you’re free to respond to everything else. you wouldn’t be anywhere close to being silenced.
let me rephrase, i’m open to learning about your suggestion. I don’t really understand how that’d work. It sounds kinda like bluesky blocklists, where the blocklist maintainers are effectively like cross-community mods. A user wouldn’t be banned in a given community, but if they’re in a blocklist you subscribe to then as far as you’re concerned they are (because they couldn’t see your content and you couldn’t see theirs).
if you’re talking about something more lenient then that, then I’d need to know details. but the point I was making is that I’m open to alternatives - I’m not married to reddit style blocking, I know it has problems, i just find the problems to be less severe than the lemmy style
blockingmuting.I’m not a Bluesky user so I haven’t seen this in operation first hand, but yeah, that sounds similar to what I have in mind.