Nearly a third of Americans – 30% – say people may have to resort to violence in order to get the country back on track, according to the latest PBS News/NPR/Marist poll.
It’s a sharp rise from 18 months ago, when 19% of Americans said the same.
Nearly a third of Americans – 30% – say people may have to resort to violence in order to get the country back on track, according to the latest PBS News/NPR/Marist poll.
It’s a sharp rise from 18 months ago, when 19% of Americans said the same.
Gee, almost as if Russian propaganda is working.
Before the Civil War one politician opined that if a war started you’d be able to mop up all the blood spilled with one handkerchief.
Anyone who thinks a new fight will be any easier has probably never been in a real fight.
I don’t think people realize that if a new US civil war kicked off the lines wouldn’t be as clear as north vs south. this would be state vs state, city vs city, neighbor vs neighbor. you could draw lines in your god damn sub division/street.
And if it were alliances between states it would be a god damn logistical nightmare. Imagine California being allied with New York for example. or Hell Minnesota being allied with like Arizona or whatever. how do you move supplies, troops, and what have you between allied states when you got a shit ton of hostiles between the two.
Add to the fact that unlike the first civil war you now have US military bases all over the world. what happens when you got folks within the SAME base in the middle of Germany that suddenly don’t “agree” with each other?
Cluster fuck is an understatement.
There’d also be a shit-ton of drone warfare. Thousands will die without ever seeing their killers face. It’s also entirely possible AI will be bombing people and you’ll basically be killed by an algorithm.
Lets also not forget cyberwarfare, ranging from external to internal sources, ranging from doxxing people to invented news events with AI gen/manipulated images/audio/video, all the way up to knocking out public infrastructure, locking down hardware of local gov / businesses / banks with ransomware, etc.
Random, unofficial people are capable of either most or all of that.
Oh and of course if shit really kicks off, other countries will probably do the CIA’s signature move of funding arming and training various groups of people.
It’s also why we need to avoid violence and make the regime stumble into itself.
Which is why Chinese and Russia propaganda is attempting to stoke the fire (remember, they eliminated their opposition, so they don’t have the same experience inciting violence and they think they do).
Here’s the thing: It’s not going to fucking do that; it’s going to stumble into fascism. Fascism is stupid and incompetent, but it absolutely does not and will not fizzle out without a resistance as committed as the fascists themselves. I mean, which fascist movement in history “stumbled into itself?”
implying there has ever not been violence or that the current amount of violence by right wingers and the US government isn’t already, currently, right this fucking second even worse than before Trump’s first term
nonviolent resistance is an important front but it alone won’t be enough, I fear.
I saw one dream map where Canada drops two tentacles; one reaches down through the West all the way to San Diego, and the Eastern one reaches just north of Washington.
Humor aside, I agree with your take. A war of assassins and terrorists on both sides.
I’ll add one more note. Back in the day, the Irish Republican Army was the most feared underground in the world. They only had a handful of soldiers, but a superb organization. If a shooter was supposed to kill someone in Geneva, he’d have three or four cars waiting when he got to the airport, and each driver would know five places the shooter could stay. He’d have a choice of getaway drivers and extra safe houses and docotrs on tap.
How do you still manage that in the current (and worsening) surveillance state? I mean Luigi showed its possible for a lone wolf but I have to question being able to organize without being known. If you are caught organizing an antifa org then you’re also uber boned.
My point was that the next war won’t look anything like the last one.
Anyone who thinks that some molotov cocktails they made is going to bring down the system has another think coming.
In my view the only way organization would work is with the assistance of an enemy nation with the ability to circumvent the surveillance state (to ship in weapons, avoid communication eavesdropping, etc). And unfortunately those nations are mostly very, very far away.
I can think of a funnier map: Canada taking NY, Washington DC, … and Mexico (re)taking the west coast. Imagine if Texas ended up being again part of Mexico.
https://mexiconewsdaily.com/politics/canada-mexico-usmca-review-carney-visit/
This is why the techniques pioneered by the native americans, and taught to colonial rebels by their experience fighting with them, would be the most likely path.
What is that, you ask? Guerilla warfare. It’s why we were able to defeat the most powerful colonial empire since the Romans.
We had the same conditions you described, a good chunk of people who still considered themselve British were mixed in with those who sought freedom.
Hard to hide from a drone.
Its going to be more like the people vs the federal gov.
If you think this, you should talk to your average republican voter. They will suck that orange cock until every bit of their wealth and ability to afford food is gone, and blame whoever fox news points a finger at that day.
It would be a clusterfuck. Especially since the type of violence some have advocated for recently is more akin to political assassination. We need to push back on the false equivalence of “person X says stuff I don’t agree with about perceived identities, therefore that speech ‘unpersons’ me, therefore it’s tantamount to a death threat, therefore actual violence against that person is justified.” You can literally find examples in these comments here.
If you have thousands of lonewolves each deciding unilaterally to assassinate (insert political opponent or public figure here) based on their own subjective perceptions, that no longer resembles a civil war, it more resembles a free-for-all hellscape.
I’d suggest a more useful concept is to form strong local communities committed to their own well being, mutual aid, and defense. Whatever that looks like for you in your area. Your mileage may vary. This is not legal advice.
There may have to be a free-for-all hellscape phase before getting to an organized something-better phase in the hit video game super mushyroom kingdom.
Isn’t Hell in Michigan?
So which hashtag would you use to end slavery?
Let’s turn it around.
I say violence won’t work.
Please explain in detail how you see the conflict going. I mean, I’m certain that the same people who couldn’t get past the DNC to get Bernie nominated will have no problem facing off against “military contractors” hired by the billionaire class.
Details, please.
I mean, I dread whatever violence is upcoming. But the reality is liberation has never happened with solely nonviolent means. Even King and Ghandi were buttressed by groups that used a variety of tactics, including violence, to force the state to come to the table with them.
This isn’t to advocate indiscriminate or senseless violence, but if your resistance group is nonviolent, and condemn any violence by other resistance groups, they have severely limited the range of tactics acceptable for use, and cede the power of justified violence to those in power only.
There’s a good book called “How Nonviolence Protects the State” that goes into depth on this, you should check it out.
In the end is a “good cop, bad cop” situation.
Give up and let them kill us, got it.
Still not seeing an actual plan.
Violence works, otherwise there wouldn’t be any. We’ve put up a whole system of laws and police and investigators and courts and prisons in order to provide an alternative to violence. And even then, that system is itself backed up with a real threat of violence as well as its occasional localized deployment.
Yesterday’s “pep rally” where none of the military leaders dragged in had anything good to say about it suggests that there is not the overwhelming military support that Trump wants there to be. There are plenty of examples of far less powerful local forces successfully standing up to superpowers. Afghanistan is one. Wallachia is another.
When the entire federal government and many state governments have wholly abandoned the systems put together to avoid violence, and are in fact using the husks of those systems to apply violence to their opponents, we’ve already crossed the Rubicon.
I would like to throw in that Vietnam managed to not only win a war against the US/French/Australians… but to also win a war against China, after the US left Vietnam.
Basically, after the US and allies left Vietnam, Vietnam invaded Cambodia to put a stop to Pol Pot’s monstrous Khmer Rouge regime… and then China invaded Vietnam in response.
Vietnam repulsed them.
Despite being somewhere between considerably to vastly outnumbered, and fighting on multiple fronts.
The lesson of this story is do not fuck with the Viet Cong.
Say what you will about their version of ‘communism’ as a societal model, but holy shit does modern Vietnam have an insane military track record, with basically all its roots in guerilla warfare.
Violence fails 50% of the time, if not more. Every fight has a losing side.
Yup, and the side that loses is the side that wasn’t violent enough.
Read up on your history.
The US dropped something like five Hiroshimas a day on North Viet-Nam for years.
Germany killed many more enemy soldiers than Russia did.
Quality over quantity.
Which is literally the opposite of your previous comment.
Your apology is poorly worded, but I accept it.
I’m pretty sure we all agree that violence is a bad solution. The problem is we’re all out of good ones. What are the alternatives at this point?
Society upholding its part of the social bargain. Making these people feel afraid to express such opinions anymore. Without that long term, even physical violence will only buy temporary change. These people will always return if given the opportunity. And for generations Americans have been taught to tolerate intolerance.
I don’t see how we would make them afraid without any implied threat of violence though. Apart from that, I wholeheartedly agree with you.
Through a threat of non-physical violence. Cutting them off from society. The reason we’re now debating about actual physical violence, about actually killing people. Is because society as a whole failed utterly to do that.
The last time this happened, the Civil War. Sherman was stopped much too early. As well as reconstruction. The fact that Confederate leadership was just allowed to surrender then allowed back into society with very little reprocussion. Not even to have all their property confiscated to repay for the damage they’d done. Let alone be exiled from the United States itself completely. That open sore was allowed to fester and become celebrated.
All of which served as an inspiration and a blueprint to the first wave of fascists in the early 20th century. It was all open and tolerated by society. That’s why it returned.
that lever is getting harder and harder to pull. already it’s impossible to get, for example, blatantly transphobic videos removed from youtube. The right’s campaign of reframing the consequences of their bigotry as “censorship” or “anti conservative bias” has unfortunately resonated with big tech.
and a lot of these nazi fucks feel like they are protected from the consequences of spouting their nazi fuck bullshit, probably because they increasingly are.
Because big anything has always been for being "BIGGER“. They will do anything to further their brand. And make line go up. Right up and over a cliff if they must. Just so they can claim to be the one that reached the peak. Then blame the fall on everyone else.
Society is okay with and accepts bigots, transphobes, and Nazis. Though I repeat myself twice. Why wouldn’t these companies platform them. They are tolerated and socially acceptable in society. We’re told to be understanding and consciliatory to magats. That they could be just like us if we accept them. Bullshit. I don’t need to be shamed and browbeaten in to behaving like a decent empathetic human being. I do it because it’s just the right thing to do. Meanwhile, they scream bloody murder at the slightest hint of pushback. That only meant it was starting to work and we should have pushed harder. Not backed off and tried to understand them.
I can’t remember… Historically how has fascism been defeated? It’s right there, but for the life of me I can’t recall. Can you help?
I don’t remember, how many countries in Europe installed Fascist governments after Lenin came in?
I can cherry pick historical facts too.
Cherry picked? A world war is a cherry picked fact? Well now we know your delusions aren’t limited to present issues.
If you feel name calling is a viable tactic, I guess I’ll have to cede to your vast intelligence and withdraw. I may be deluded but I know when a conversation is a waste of time.
Name calling would be something like “you’re an idiot”. Saying you’re delusional for minimizing arguably the worst war in human history as a cherry picked fact is descriptive. But yes, this is a waste of time.
Idealists thinking that humans, notoriously violent mind you, have somehow evolved beyond violence WHILE VIOLENCE IS OCCURRING is absolutely insane!
It’s a waste of time, but you’ll keep it going. When I say I laughed out loud at your comment, it’s no delusion.
So what did Occupy Wall Street accomplish? What about the March for our Lives protests? What about the BLM riots? What did Bernie Sanders winning every single county in the 2016 WV Democrat Primary accomplish?
So, no actual plan?
Those examples were the plan. But peaceful revolution have been shown to be impossible.
Wishful thinking isn’t a plan.
Using a hashtag to end slavery isn’t much of one either.
Where did I say that was the plan?
If you’re going to put words in my mouth, please give me a side of guacamole and chips.
Hi, my name is ICE, off to a death camp for you, according to me and my paramilitary goon squad who broke into your house/apartment at 3 am.
Don’t bother arguing, that’s what the gag and spit hood are for.
Violence is already here.
Thoughts and prayers are not an effective defense.
I would suggest either hiding, very, very well, which is probably impossible for most social media addicts who’ve publicized half of their existence, and for morons who think that their VPN isn’t keeping logs that can all be subpoenaed by the government…
Or maybe some kind of actual local community organizing, involving you know, actually speaking with your neighbors in meatspace, getting to know them, forming at bare minimum a plan for how to deal with say, food shortage, brown out/black out, etc.
And what’s the plan?
Going to start shooting Federal officers in the street?
Here’s what happens; Federal government shuts down the power to the whole city. Mobilizes the National Guard. Brings in overseas ‘military contractors’ like after Katrina.
Meanwhile, the 0.001% is at its beach house on Bali.
That all happens if you do nothing as well.
Infact it literally already is happening, half of what you describe as a potential reaction.
I am not going to give you the plan on an unsecured, publically accessible communication platform, you are a moron for asking for that.
I, personally, am crippled, and plan to do nothing and remain as close to an unthreatening digital ghost as possible.
That might, might actually work for me, because I am white, and have never registered as any kind of party affiliated voter, have never given my biometric data to any company or device for any reason, haven’t been on an air flight in 20 years, don’t have any social presence beyond this here psuedonomyous account.
Maybe you could start your plan with learning some basic opsec.
Your point is valid.
It probably looks like a dystopian novel surveillance state, with drones watching you every time you leave your house (or not). All internet and phone communication would be monitored. And anyone caught saying things the government doesn’t like would suffer consequences.
With individual events prompting it and happening occasionally regardless of the surveillance state.
It’d look a lot more like the Irish than the Civil War. It’d be a country of everyone living in fear.
Sadly, the best defense we have is the fact that Trump is an idiot surrounded by dolts.
A competent leader would have locked everything down years ago.
A competent leader would have realized that the country is in a pretty good spot, he’s in a pretty good spot. They’d focus on helping the American people and improving the world and the country.
They wouldn’t be Hitler with more grift.
It takes a special amount of dumb to do the damage they’ve done. With their goals, they can’t, by definition, be competent.
I’ve been saying this since 2016.
All Trump had to do was call the Saudis on Inauguration Day and tell them that they were going to put $50 billion in his bank account.
Then he could have sat back and done nothing.
I’m a life long New Yorker, and I’ve seen Trump’s dumb for decades. Besides bankrupting casinos, he lost about a billion trying to buy the Plaza Hotel.
Everything is Russia’s fault, got it.