I think we differ mainly in that I think that in this era Civilization must be broader than just “Doing what’s better for us”.
So in that sense the Scandinavian model of governance by itself (absent all else), whilst more civilized than most others, isn’t enough for Civilization - there needs to be some kind of broad holding of Universal Humanist Principles rather than merelly just the nation treating its own citizens well.
By that metric and looking at the awful position of Denmark in regards to the Israeli Genocide and even in things like pushing for broad civil society surveillance at the EU level in the form of Chat Control, Denmark is NOT a civilized country, even if it’s better for its own citizens than the vast majority of countries are for theirs.
there needs to be some kind of broad holding of Universal Humanist Principles
I agree, and those principles are the basis for the welfare system, healthcare for all, livable minimum wage etc.
But also all EU countries are committed to those, it is mandatory for being a member of EU.
UK has a long history of not respecting such values particularly with their colonialism, and not letting go until they couldn’t hold onto it anymore.
USA has a similar problem with slavery way beyond what was acceptable in other countries that called themselves civilized. USA has even gone so far as to keep oppressing minorities, first with less voting power, but later exploited as cheap labor, which is probably why we see such a low minimum wage even today.
Take those general humanitarian principles, and you will see the leading democracies also being leading in humanitarian values. An example obviously being the Scandinavian countries. Just as authoritarian countries have disregard for humanitarian values.
We see that clearly in both USA and UK that are both dysfunctional democracies.
By that metric and looking at the awful position of Denmark in regards to the Israeli Genocide
And what awful position is that? Denmark has not helped Israel in their genocide, there was a reaction against the Hamas terrorist attack a couple of years ago, but the tune has changed a lot since that. I agree that personally I think our prime ministers initial reaction was disgusting and tone deaf 100% supporting Israel (but only morally and at the time), but Denmark has not supported Israel in their violent attacks on Palestine. And Denmark has also criticized Israel very strongly, and OFFICIALLY accused Israel of genocide in for instance UN.
The knee jerk reaction to support Israel is something that most western democracies suffer from, we were responsible for the creation of Israel, and somehow see it as our responsibility to protect Israel. Although Israel has become the villain we originally wanted to protect them against.
But Denmark is in no way like either USA in this situation, that have laws that they are required to protect Israel. Those laws may have seemed like a good idea at the time, but in this situation they need to be removed.
Lets put things this way: nations which hold Universal Humanist Principles will always treat their citizens well (or at least as well as they can), but nations which treat their citizens well don’t necessarily hold Universal Humanist Principles.
As for the rest, it’s just circling back to my original point that few or no nations are civilized, but the citizens in some nations are civilized whilst the elites holding power are not.
Good to know Denmark has changed its position in the Genocide. When are the sanctions on Israel starting?!
I also noticed you didn’t address my point on Denmark’s government push for broad civil society surveillance for all of the EU with Chat Control, something which in my view is the very opposite of “civilized” in the modern era.
I think we differ mainly in that I think that in this era Civilization must be broader than just “Doing what’s better for us”.
So in that sense the Scandinavian model of governance by itself (absent all else), whilst more civilized than most others, isn’t enough for Civilization - there needs to be some kind of broad holding of Universal Humanist Principles rather than merelly just the nation treating its own citizens well.
By that metric and looking at the awful position of Denmark in regards to the Israeli Genocide and even in things like pushing for broad civil society surveillance at the EU level in the form of Chat Control, Denmark is NOT a civilized country, even if it’s better for its own citizens than the vast majority of countries are for theirs.
I agree, and those principles are the basis for the welfare system, healthcare for all, livable minimum wage etc.
But also all EU countries are committed to those, it is mandatory for being a member of EU.
UK has a long history of not respecting such values particularly with their colonialism, and not letting go until they couldn’t hold onto it anymore.
USA has a similar problem with slavery way beyond what was acceptable in other countries that called themselves civilized. USA has even gone so far as to keep oppressing minorities, first with less voting power, but later exploited as cheap labor, which is probably why we see such a low minimum wage even today.
Take those general humanitarian principles, and you will see the leading democracies also being leading in humanitarian values. An example obviously being the Scandinavian countries. Just as authoritarian countries have disregard for humanitarian values.
We see that clearly in both USA and UK that are both dysfunctional democracies.
And what awful position is that? Denmark has not helped Israel in their genocide, there was a reaction against the Hamas terrorist attack a couple of years ago, but the tune has changed a lot since that. I agree that personally I think our prime ministers initial reaction was disgusting and tone deaf 100% supporting Israel (but only morally and at the time), but Denmark has not supported Israel in their violent attacks on Palestine. And Denmark has also criticized Israel very strongly, and OFFICIALLY accused Israel of genocide in for instance UN.
The knee jerk reaction to support Israel is something that most western democracies suffer from, we were responsible for the creation of Israel, and somehow see it as our responsibility to protect Israel. Although Israel has become the villain we originally wanted to protect them against.
But Denmark is in no way like either USA in this situation, that have laws that they are required to protect Israel. Those laws may have seemed like a good idea at the time, but in this situation they need to be removed.
Lets put things this way: nations which hold Universal Humanist Principles will always treat their citizens well (or at least as well as they can), but nations which treat their citizens well don’t necessarily hold Universal Humanist Principles.
As for the rest, it’s just circling back to my original point that few or no nations are civilized, but the citizens in some nations are civilized whilst the elites holding power are not.
Good to know Denmark has changed its position in the Genocide. When are the sanctions on Israel starting?!
I also noticed you didn’t address my point on Denmark’s government push for broad civil society surveillance for all of the EU with Chat Control, something which in my view is the very opposite of “civilized” in the modern era.