I think it’s just recognizing the complexity of a world where even nazis will call their enemies “nazis” if it’s useful to them.
The “if you are offended when I call you a nazi you are a nazi” is a weird take to begin with.
I think the comment you are replying to isn’t arguing with the fuck nazis part, but the behaviour where progressive groups can be divided and conquered by socializing animosity between them.
Like when atheists were fighting against the heritage foundation, until they had to defend against claims of being bigots because “wanting to make circumcision generally illegal in the USA means you are pro FGM and you hate women, and if you argue otherwise it is an admission of guilt”
And all of the progressives were shamed out until the very groups that were actively fighting groups like the heritage foundation were terraformed into actual incel chud hangouts, while academic feminists were drowned out by the same culture war bullshit, helping to generally paint feminists as cringe karens, rather than a bastion against political movements by groups like the heritage foundation.
If you don’t know why I keep talking about the heritage foundation, it’s because they are the project 2025 people in no small part responsible for the current actual fascist push.
But… That’s difficult to explain while confronted by absolutist tribalism.
Don’t be divided and conquered. It’s harder for progressives to coordinate due to group complexity, but it’s important not to do the work of the fascists for them.
Progressives fighting progressives because its socially expedient to not think about the bigger picture is indeed a big part of why trump is in power, which that comment seems to indicate as a bad thing.
That doesn’t matter though if you just imagine their comment was “don’t be mean to nazis!!”
If you just pretend they said that, it’s so much easier to do the social peacock thing that has kneecapped progressive/leftist groups, and we can just ignore the failures of this behavior, because self reflection is bad for some reason.
the world is complex, and nazis will use this type of oversimplified comprehension to stop progressive groups from finding common ground.
divide and conquer has been extremely successful for the motives of fascism.
which is no small part why USA is currently run by fascists that keep making threats against my allied country.
we can hate nazis while also being capable of communication past the hypersimplified binaries that are actively useful for nazis.
this is why all the academics keep shouting that americans need to learn to read, and why it really is “that deep.”
this isn’t “happening in my head.” at least any more than anything else from the framing of predictive processing.
but that dismissal is generally the response academics have gotten when trying to affect the general social comprehension.
but you haven’t really engaged with any of the points i’ve actually made, creating your own re-interpretation of the conversation that allows you to ignore the points being made, responding to yourself instead, which is great for oversimplified social dogpiling.
It’s so funny how you’re using so many words, going out of your way spreading what you think is some ultra deep next level wisdom - just to somehow justify why it’s ok to be triggered by ‘fuck nazis’.
Just so you know, a normal person see this, shrugs and is already on their way to the next thing on their mind. You don’t have to have a political agenda to not be triggered by this.
You’re so simple minded that you don’t notice how you’re hooked by this primitive mind trick.
And that you want to sound like some intellectual on top of that is just so hilarious.
justify why it’s ok to be triggered by ‘fuck nazis’.
nobody here is arguing this.
because you can’t interpret the words doesn’t mean they actually mean this.
“fuck nazis” -> good
“if i call your group nazis, and you get offended, you’re a nazi.” -> bad
“don’t call people you disagree with nazis” is a response to the second example. conflating it with the first is the problem.
and i talk about it because it is important for antifascists to comprehend what framing is when it used against them.
and maybe shit wouldn’t be half as bad if americans were socialized into comprehending and using more big words, so they can tell the difference between jordan peterson bullshit and actual attempts to communicate more complicated topics.
hard to talk about the issues if people don’t socialize the words and concepts around them.
So let me explain it to you, real slow and simple.
The meme instructs you to post ‘fuck nazis’ and wait for reactions. There is no engaging besides that one statement. No other context. No discussion. Just this two words.
There is absolutely no reason to react to ‘fuck nazis’ with some deep philosophical discussion on how it might be problematic to call people nazis.
This might sound wild to you, so believe it or not, but next to nobody on the planet is being called a nazi. That’s not an experience the average person makes.
So it’s very telling when you actually are triggered. You are forcing a discussion on us nobody asked for.
“i’m going to ignore all of your points and simplify things again in a way that’s convenient for me.”
literally what MAGA cultists do.
“don’t call people you disagree with nazis!”
is unfortunately also what people say when people call non-nazis ‘nazis,’
such as progressive groups like feminists or atheists.
now suddenly both are nazis? and they have to fight each-other instead of the heritage foundation?
why can’t a single person here actually engage with this part of the conversation instead of the made up one they want to simplify to?
we can hate nazis while also being capable of communication past the hypersimplified binaries that are actively useful for nazis.
So why are you being useful to Nazis by speaking up and having a hypothetical discourse and being a running dog for Nazism? Sometimes it’s just better to not say anything as an antifascist and seeing Nazis show themselves (only Nazis would get triggered/baited to comment on a meme like this)
social peacock thing that has kneecapped progressive/leftist groups
Interesting lingo you use there
Have you dipshit considered that fash seeing no “social peacock” might let them think they’re in good company as they’re unopposed? You think calling out “virtues signaling” is a good counter that fash have? Why are you doing this for them?
at literally no point was i being “a running dog for nazism”
and repeatedly i showed how this exact failing was useful for the current fascist movement.
"Interesting lingo you use there "
how can i phrase it without setting off your imaginary dog whistles? also i get these concepts from… anti-fascist academics.
i do agree that it’s important to flag nazis as bad, and socially reify that,
but also that we need to be able to point out when the more clever nazis get the stupidest portion of progressives to socialize that other progressive groups are the real nazis, and that even trying to discuss the matter is an admission of guilt.
the original comment i was discussing a bout was talking about the FRAMING.
like saying “right thing for the wrong reasons.” which is important, because sometimes failing to distinguish helps the nazis.
this is the part about blue curtains, but you have not yet actually noticed the point we are making beyond your simpler interpretation of what is being said.
as a progressive and a leftist, i find this exhausting, because the inability for people to comprehend words past the social signalling is directly responsible for much of the recent fascist success.
but let’s keep ignoring all of that, because academics are mean for saying we have to think about context sometimes.
i showed how this exact failing was useful for the current fascist movement.
Yes you sure did show how you’re useful for the current fascist movement.
i get these concepts from… anti-fascist academics.
Do those “anti-fascist academics” say that say that feminists are the real fascists because boobies in vidyagames don’t make your pipi hard by any chance?
i find this exhausting, because the inability for people to comprehend words past the social signalling is directly responsible for much of the recent fascist success.
I don’t need to comprehend the words that try to argue why “fuck Nazis” is bad.
academics are mean for saying we have to think about context sometimes
Have you dipshit considered your posts in the context of this thread?
the points you’ve shared are repeated ad nauseam by an overwhelming majority that have clearly reasoned them out of misinformation, triggering automatic disregard. (ie akin to the arguments like human nature prevents socialism).
there’s now doubt that it’s willful ignorance given that you try to persist and explain them, but then again so too do the disingenuous.
I agree that we have to be careful about who we call nazis, and who they call nazis, but if you get offended by the phrase “fuck nazis”, without further context or identifiers, then I’m ok with saying fuck off.
because i’ve said in several different ways
“fuck nazis, and fuck the social mechanisms empowering nazis.”
but “this framing is bad and has actively helped the nazis.” becomes “i love nazis” to people who can’t fucking read.
which is why they love the uneducated.
and why the progressive movements actively fighting this shit for decades have been socially dogpiled into being “cringe,” and chastised by insulting people with big words, because only nazis talk about framing and use big words. i often talk about jordon peterson types poisoning this particular well with their intentional bullshit.
so, was it my support for atheist and feminist thinkers? was it my hate for the heritage foundation?
what part of that is defending nazis exactly?
If you don’t have a problem with “fuck nazis”, then we’re good. If you see “fuck nazis” and want to defend them, fuck off. If you’re good with “fuck nazis” then we’re good.
The CFR is the parent organization, sponsoring many academic studies that support their agenda.
The Heritage Foundation is “CFR for dummies”. You’ll note no academic studies there, it’s more directly opinion pieces, often with a Christian spin. This has been very effective in the USA for obvious reasons.
If you’re adventurous, please note the sponsors of the CFR and so on… it’s a rabbit hole.
Be careful with the truth in mixed company online, as you can be banned for “conspiracies”, even if it is public information that can easily be verified through the actual organizations themselves.
They don’t even bother to hide it… why bother? The public is easily manipulated (as your story re atheists vs. Heritage affirms)
p.s. oh dear, the poster I responded to has been banned. things aren’t looking good for Mulligrubs
Hey, thanks for taking the time to express a nuanced and complex viewpoint. You’re exactly the kind of person who gets lumped in with Nazis by the divisive, black-or-white stance championed in this post.
I’d hoped that Lemmy would have more mature discussion like this, but as you can see in this thread, it’s the same style of “join in the simplistic hatred or be considered the worst kind of enemy” bigotry here too.
There’re two claims being made here.
Nazis are bad, we don’t like them, and
anyone who expresses disagreement with the statement “fuck Nazis” must be a Nazi.
Most people agree with (1), but to many, me included, (2) is obviously false. There are many, many reasons people would disagree with “fuck Nazis or you are one”, besides being a Nazi and wanting to defend them. Some just dislike profanity. Some don’t want to generalize a historical term to today’s distinct political factions. Others, like you, recognise that reality is complex, that this finger pointing, name calling strategy is something Nazis do too, or simply that it’s not the way intelligent progressives should act.
I genuinely believe that this"call everyone a Nazi" bullshit is part of what’s fissioning our social network into antagonistic factions and causing us to waste our meagre collective political capital arguing about which bathroom a few people should use instead of solving our real, pressing global economic and environmental crises.
Now, queue someone replying to insist I must be a Nazi because I didn’t just jump on the hate bandwagon…
It feels better to make cartoon villains out of people who are wrong than to entertain any differences between the worst thing you can think of and someone who doesn’t happen to share your views (however obviously correct they may seem).
Don’t think they disagreed with that part.
I think it’s just recognizing the complexity of a world where even nazis will call their enemies “nazis” if it’s useful to them.
The “if you are offended when I call you a nazi you are a nazi” is a weird take to begin with.
I think the comment you are replying to isn’t arguing with the fuck nazis part, but the behaviour where progressive groups can be divided and conquered by socializing animosity between them.
Like when atheists were fighting against the heritage foundation, until they had to defend against claims of being bigots because “wanting to make circumcision generally illegal in the USA means you are pro FGM and you hate women, and if you argue otherwise it is an admission of guilt”
And all of the progressives were shamed out until the very groups that were actively fighting groups like the heritage foundation were terraformed into actual incel chud hangouts, while academic feminists were drowned out by the same culture war bullshit, helping to generally paint feminists as cringe karens, rather than a bastion against political movements by groups like the heritage foundation.
If you don’t know why I keep talking about the heritage foundation, it’s because they are the project 2025 people in no small part responsible for the current actual fascist push.
But… That’s difficult to explain while confronted by absolutist tribalism.
Don’t be divided and conquered. It’s harder for progressives to coordinate due to group complexity, but it’s important not to do the work of the fascists for them.
Progressives fighting progressives because its socially expedient to not think about the bigger picture is indeed a big part of why trump is in power, which that comment seems to indicate as a bad thing.
That doesn’t matter though if you just imagine their comment was “don’t be mean to nazis!!”
If you just pretend they said that, it’s so much easier to do the social peacock thing that has kneecapped progressive/leftist groups, and we can just ignore the failures of this behavior, because self reflection is bad for some reason.
There is no ‘other part’.
The meme literally is about making this one statement and waiting for people to be offended.
There is no other statement here.
Anything besides this is happening in your head. That’s why it’s working.
the world is complex, and nazis will use this type of oversimplified comprehension to stop progressive groups from finding common ground.
divide and conquer has been extremely successful for the motives of fascism.
which is no small part why USA is currently run by fascists that keep making threats against my allied country.
we can hate nazis while also being capable of communication past the hypersimplified binaries that are actively useful for nazis.
this is why all the academics keep shouting that americans need to learn to read, and why it really is “that deep.”
this isn’t “happening in my head.” at least any more than anything else from the framing of predictive processing. but that dismissal is generally the response academics have gotten when trying to affect the general social comprehension.
but you haven’t really engaged with any of the points i’ve actually made, creating your own re-interpretation of the conversation that allows you to ignore the points being made, responding to yourself instead, which is great for oversimplified social dogpiling.
It’s so funny how you’re using so many words, going out of your way spreading what you think is some ultra deep next level wisdom - just to somehow justify why it’s ok to be triggered by ‘fuck nazis’.
Just so you know, a normal person see this, shrugs and is already on their way to the next thing on their mind. You don’t have to have a political agenda to not be triggered by this.
You’re so simple minded that you don’t notice how you’re hooked by this primitive mind trick.
And that you want to sound like some intellectual on top of that is just so hilarious.
nobody here is arguing this. because you can’t interpret the words doesn’t mean they actually mean this.
“fuck nazis” -> good
“if i call your group nazis, and you get offended, you’re a nazi.” -> bad
“don’t call people you disagree with nazis” is a response to the second example. conflating it with the first is the problem.
and i talk about it because it is important for antifascists to comprehend what framing is when it used against them. and maybe shit wouldn’t be half as bad if americans were socialized into comprehending and using more big words, so they can tell the difference between jordan peterson bullshit and actual attempts to communicate more complicated topics.
hard to talk about the issues if people don’t socialize the words and concepts around them.
Haha, you still don’t get it.
So let me explain it to you, real slow and simple.
The meme instructs you to post ‘fuck nazis’ and wait for reactions. There is no engaging besides that one statement. No other context. No discussion. Just this two words.
There is absolutely no reason to react to ‘fuck nazis’ with some deep philosophical discussion on how it might be problematic to call people nazis.
This might sound wild to you, so believe it or not, but next to nobody on the planet is being called a nazi. That’s not an experience the average person makes.
So it’s very telling when you actually are triggered. You are forcing a discussion on us nobody asked for.
It’s so painfully obvious.
as i said,
the meme does NOT say to call out people offended by “fuck nazis”
there would be no issue if it said that. we all agree with that.
it says to call out people who are offended by being called nazis,
and people who call out the incorrect framing are conflated with arguing a non-existent point, because comprehending framing is too much work i guess
Can you please type out the post word for word then explain exactly which line is telling people to call anyone Nazis.
Lol. No it doesn’t.
Here is what it literally says:
Nowhere does it tell you to call out people. The second point tells you to watch for specific kind of comments. That’s 100% passive.
You know, exactly those kind of comments you provided.
“i’m going to ignore all of your points and simplify things again in a way that’s convenient for me.” literally what MAGA cultists do.
“don’t call people you disagree with nazis!” is unfortunately also what people say when people call non-nazis ‘nazis,’ such as progressive groups like feminists or atheists.
now suddenly both are nazis? and they have to fight each-other instead of the heritage foundation?
why can’t a single person here actually engage with this part of the conversation instead of the made up one they want to simplify to?
So why are you being useful to Nazis by speaking up and having a hypothetical discourse and being a running dog for Nazism? Sometimes it’s just better to not say anything as an antifascist and seeing Nazis show themselves (only Nazis would get triggered/baited to comment on a meme like this)
Interesting lingo you use there
Have you dipshit considered that fash seeing no “social peacock” might let them think they’re in good company as they’re unopposed? You think calling out “virtues signaling” is a good counter that fash have? Why are you doing this for them?
at literally no point was i being “a running dog for nazism” and repeatedly i showed how this exact failing was useful for the current fascist movement.
"Interesting lingo you use there "
how can i phrase it without setting off your imaginary dog whistles? also i get these concepts from… anti-fascist academics.
i do agree that it’s important to flag nazis as bad, and socially reify that, but also that we need to be able to point out when the more clever nazis get the stupidest portion of progressives to socialize that other progressive groups are the real nazis, and that even trying to discuss the matter is an admission of guilt.
the original comment i was discussing a bout was talking about the FRAMING.
like saying “right thing for the wrong reasons.” which is important, because sometimes failing to distinguish helps the nazis.
this is the part about blue curtains, but you have not yet actually noticed the point we are making beyond your simpler interpretation of what is being said.
as a progressive and a leftist, i find this exhausting, because the inability for people to comprehend words past the social signalling is directly responsible for much of the recent fascist success.
but let’s keep ignoring all of that, because academics are mean for saying we have to think about context sometimes.
Yes you sure did show how you’re useful for the current fascist movement.
Do those “anti-fascist academics” say that say that feminists are the real fascists because boobies in vidyagames don’t make your pipi hard by any chance?
I don’t need to comprehend the words that try to argue why “fuck Nazis” is bad.
Have you dipshit considered your posts in the context of this thread?
the points you’ve shared are repeated ad nauseam by an overwhelming majority that have clearly reasoned them out of misinformation, triggering automatic disregard. (ie akin to the arguments like human nature prevents socialism).
there’s now doubt that it’s willful ignorance given that you try to persist and explain them, but then again so too do the disingenuous.
I agree that we have to be careful about who we call nazis, and who they call nazis, but if you get offended by the phrase “fuck nazis”, without further context or identifiers, then I’m ok with saying fuck off.
“fuck nazis” -> good
“if i call your group nazis, and you get offended, you’re a nazi.” -> bad
“don’t call people you disagree with nazis” is a response to the second example. conflating it with the first is the problem.
words matter, and calling out bad framing should not set off tribal dogpiling.
But the second part didn’t happen. You went straight from 1 to 3. You are jumping to defend nazis. Fuck nazis.
“you are jumping to defend nazis.”
where in your addled imagination did i say that?
because i’ve said in several different ways “fuck nazis, and fuck the social mechanisms empowering nazis.”
but “this framing is bad and has actively helped the nazis.” becomes “i love nazis” to people who can’t fucking read.
which is why they love the uneducated.
and why the progressive movements actively fighting this shit for decades have been socially dogpiled into being “cringe,” and chastised by insulting people with big words, because only nazis talk about framing and use big words. i often talk about jordon peterson types poisoning this particular well with their intentional bullshit.
so, was it my support for atheist and feminist thinkers? was it my hate for the heritage foundation? what part of that is defending nazis exactly?
If you don’t have a problem with “fuck nazis”, then we’re good. If you see “fuck nazis” and want to defend them, fuck off. If you’re good with “fuck nazis” then we’re good.
A fellow Heritage Foundation enjoyer, I see!
A rare treat! Let me introduce you to THE COUNCIL OF FOREIGN RELATIONS, which is the parent of the HF.
https://www.cfr.org/
Please note the membership of both organizations are often the same people. This is public information available at both orgs.
https://www.heritage.org/
The CFR is the parent organization, sponsoring many academic studies that support their agenda.
The Heritage Foundation is “CFR for dummies”. You’ll note no academic studies there, it’s more directly opinion pieces, often with a Christian spin. This has been very effective in the USA for obvious reasons.
If you’re adventurous, please note the sponsors of the CFR and so on… it’s a rabbit hole.
Be careful with the truth in mixed company online, as you can be banned for “conspiracies”, even if it is public information that can easily be verified through the actual organizations themselves.
They don’t even bother to hide it… why bother? The public is easily manipulated (as your story re atheists vs. Heritage affirms)
p.s. oh dear, the poster I responded to has been banned. things aren’t looking good for Mulligrubs
Hey, thanks for taking the time to express a nuanced and complex viewpoint. You’re exactly the kind of person who gets lumped in with Nazis by the divisive, black-or-white stance championed in this post.
I’d hoped that Lemmy would have more mature discussion like this, but as you can see in this thread, it’s the same style of “join in the simplistic hatred or be considered the worst kind of enemy” bigotry here too.
There’re two claims being made here.
Nazis are bad, we don’t like them, and
anyone who expresses disagreement with the statement “fuck Nazis” must be a Nazi.
Most people agree with (1), but to many, me included, (2) is obviously false. There are many, many reasons people would disagree with “fuck Nazis or you are one”, besides being a Nazi and wanting to defend them. Some just dislike profanity. Some don’t want to generalize a historical term to today’s distinct political factions. Others, like you, recognise that reality is complex, that this finger pointing, name calling strategy is something Nazis do too, or simply that it’s not the way intelligent progressives should act.
I genuinely believe that this"call everyone a Nazi" bullshit is part of what’s fissioning our social network into antagonistic factions and causing us to waste our meagre collective political capital arguing about which bathroom a few people should use instead of solving our real, pressing global economic and environmental crises.
Now, queue someone replying to insist I must be a Nazi because I didn’t just jump on the hate bandwagon…
Nuance? Sounds awfully like Nazi!
It feels better to make cartoon villains out of people who are wrong than to entertain any differences between the worst thing you can think of and someone who doesn’t happen to share your views (however obviously correct they may seem).