Is this some sort of remnant of evangelical puritan protestant ideology?
I don’t understaun this.
If you ask me, it’d make as much sense as Orthodox and Christians… or Shia and Muslim…
I know not all Christians are Catholics but for feck’s sake…
They’re all Christians to me…
Edit:
It’s a U.S thing but this is the sort of things I hear…
https://www.gotquestions.org/Catholic-Christian.html
I am a Catholic. Why should I consider becoming a Christian?
I now know more distinctions (apparently Catholicism requires duty and salvation is process, unlike Protestantism?) but I still think they’re of a similar branch (Christianity) so I just wonder the social factor
Probably because depending on the context “Christians” is likely referring to “Protestants.” There are some very significant differences between Catholic and Protestant Christianity, moreso than between Protestant denominations, whose differences tend to be a bit more trivial. Other comments make some good points, but it is not too far of a stretch to say that Catholicism may be different enough to be considered a separate religion (I don’t know who gets to draw these lines). But in the most technical sense, yes, Catholics are a subset of Christians.
Catholicism may be different enough to be considered a separate religion
I believe what you mean to say is that Protestant sects would be considered a separate religion, as Catholicism far predates other sects.
All Catholics are Christians, but not all Christians are Catholics. They are a subset by definition.
What I think they meant was that categorizing Catholicism as a seperate religion from Protestantism while Prostestantism claims Christianity makes no sense considering that Catholicism has an older claim to being Christian.
So, if anyone shouldn’t be able to claim “Christianity” because of being a new, differentiated religion then it should be Protestants. Using that logic it should be “Christians and Protestants”.
But I agree, they are all in fact Christians.
We’re talking about “orthodoxy” here. Wikipedia
In Christianity, one of the first creeds established was the Trinity; God is the one God in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. How that works is a mystery unlike anything existing, although we try to illustrate and make parallels.
This is a sharp dividing line for calling anything “Christianity.”
Muslims honor Jesus as a prophet, but that does not make them christian, because they deny his deity. Mormons do not believe in only one god (ultimately), or in the Trinity as one, but instead separate see this link.
Both Catholics and Protestants believe in a true Trinity.
As a former Mormon, the Trinity issue always seemed like a bogus distinction. I’m sure you can find plenty of sects you would label “Christian” that also believe God the Father and Jesus are separate, distinct entities
Mormons think we are all going to be gods, and that God was once a man on some planet like we were, and therefore there are literally billions of gods out there. Our God just happens to be the one relevant to us.
Source - Grew up Mormon, am not anymore
Whoa. I need to talk to some Mormons
Same with Jehovah’s Witnesses not agreeing with or affirming the Nicene creed. Generally any sect that denies the Nicene creed is seen as non Christian
Schism was the very first thing the Christian church learned to do.
Christian was the case that they gave me
Because some sects of Christianity (mostly Southern Baptist) are fucking insane and spiteful.
I can maybe understand it if they’re talking about UUs. Speaking as one, we’re not entirely sure what the hell we are either. We’re in committee trying to figure that out. </self_deprecating_joke>
Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, "Don't do it!" He said, "Nobody loves me." I said, "God loves you. Do you believe in God?" He said, "Yes." I said, "Are you a Christian or a Jew?" He said, "A Christian." I said, "Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?" He said, "Protestant." I said, "Me, too! What franchise?" He said, "Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?" He said, "Northern Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912. I said, "Die, heretic!" And I pushed him over.-Emo Philips
This is actually a shortened version of the original.
That type of specification would probably never happen.
It’s because Protestantism is the dominant form of Christianity in cultures where this language convention exists, and it is a deliberate tactic to other Catholics by labeling them non-Christian. Especially in previous times, Catholics were subject to large amounts of discrimination and antagonism by Protestants, and we’re still dealing with the remnants of this ideology today. I think the only reason it has subsided is the rise of secularism and other more foreign religions that are seen as a greater threat by Christians, forcing them into an uneasy alliance with their former enemies. But remember that tons of Christians used to murder each other over which sect they belonged to.
Interestingly, in Central America, the opposite convention exists, where you are either “Cristiano”, meaning Catholic, or “Evangelico”, meaning Protestant (usually Pentecostal). This is because the dominant group is reversed in that society.
Personally, I view Christianity, Islam, and Judaism as three branches of one religion since they are clearly very similar. But that is the view of an outsider.
Don’t forget Catholicism spent centuries converting with a sword and their missionairies destroyed all remnants of native cultures history once they were converted. That’s an awful lot of discrimination from Catholics.
Of course. This was written from the perspective of the English-speaking world, so I primarily focused on Protestant discrimination against Catholics, because that was the norm for several centuries. But as I alluded to in the last section, in predominantly Catholic areas, the situation was about the inverse and similar campaigns were waged against Protestants.
I view Christianity, Islam, and Judaism as three branches of one religion since they are clearly very similar. But that is the view of an outsider.
nah, they’re grouped together under the umbrella of “Abrahamic religions”, and at least muslims regard the other two as “people of the book”.
obv your mileage may vary from person to person, I’m not saying the terrorist idiots don’t call people infidel left right and center don’t exist, but people who are a bit better than that generally see christians and jews as peers.
Don’t forget the Baha’i, the Babs, and the Druze. Don’t know if they’re considered people of the book or not. Same with the Samaritan Israelites
I think only Christians, Jews, and Sabians are al-Khitab if I recall correctly from my course on Islam two decades ago.
I’ll just copy paste Wikipedia since it’s actually pretty good here:
In the Quran [the people of the book] are identified as the Jews, the Christians, the Sabians, and—according to some interpretations—the Zoroastrians. Starting from the 8th century, some Muslims also recognized other religious groups such as the Samaritans, and even Buddhists, Hindus, and Jains
We don’t actually know who the Sabians were, though there are a few theories.
Because America is built by non-catholic faiths composed of heretics that love to burn women alive, abusers that craft abusive personality cults in hills-have-eyes country, false prophet grifters who tell you god’s gonna cure your terminal ilness if you help them get a private jet for their dogs, the hate-worshiping demons that blight the south ‘evangelicals’ that drive modern american politics, and misogynistic polytheistic pagans wearing the Christian mask while dressed in their weird underwear and tell you you’re not allowed to drink coffee but monster energy drinks are a-okay, who all want to be acknowledged as the real Christian faith instead of being labeled as schismatic protestants and chose to go with the common moniker “catholics & christians” instead of “catholics and protestants”
I mean a lot of Christianity in the US is like that, but I don’t like you implying that there’s another type of Christianity (presumably the one you believe in) that’s so much better.
Most of the Christianity outside the USA is not like that. Still bad, but way less bad.
Catholics believe in a religious hierarchy, Cardinals, bishops, Pope e.t.c.
Christians USUALLY think hierarchy in religion is almost blasphemous. But really it’s just so they can kinda just do whatever the fuck they want and not worry about the Pope excommunicating them.
If you are curious look up the Protestant Reformation, Martin Luther and his 99 Theses.
I’m paraphrasing and my thoughts on what I experienced this but it came down more to the idea that Catholics worship the pope and the saints more than god and jesus. If you were the leader of a nation that called themselves Catholic you could find the Pope telling you what to do when it came to war and if you declared war on another Catholic country the Pope could tell you to stop or to declare peace. To not do so was in danger of having all other Catholic nations declare war.
Not to mention the many saints you are required to pray to, Purgatory and praying for the dead, all of the rituals, services in Latin, worship of the virgin mother, the schism that split the church between two Popes who excommunicated each other, etc.
Protestantism did away with all of that. No single leader, the ability to create different sects that didn’t make you an apostate of the church, etc. Now don’t get me wrong even the same sect don’t always believe the exact same things and it can get pretty nit-picky, but Protestantisn can change with the times more easily than Catholicism can.
The goal was to make less of a ritual cult like Catholicism had become, and more of a focus on the meaning of the the actions of jesus, being able to actually get to heaven without all of the pomp and circumstance that really meant nothing, and all that crap.
The worry is the President would be more loyal to the other Catholics than the rest of the nation and would be bound by cult rules than the will of the people.
Ironically enough right now it’s the Catholic President trying to stop rights from being taken away while there are both Protestants and Catholics in the Supreme Court and other facets of the government that are working so hard to do the opposite.
And yet what a actually happened is that Catholics ended up generally more liberal and Protestants ended up becoming evangelicals and causing a lot of the problems currently faced in, for example, the US.
Edit’ Catholicism continues to try to bleed any kind of support by protecting pedophiles in case you feel like I am being too lenient toward Catholicism.
Evangelicals tend to not like mainline Protestants for being too liberal, the mainline Protestants are a lot less noisy and also traditionally better connected. Mainline Protestant conservatives have had no problem courting evangelicals historically though, which is one reason they’re in the situation they are now. Mainline Protestant conservative gives you a traditional stuffy republican politician, evangelical gives you MTG.
Possibly generally more liberal but my personal anecdote as a raised Catholic- now non Christian , is that Catholics are only marginally less crazy than evangelicals. All Catholics I know are super conservative.
Edit: I know Biden identifies as Catholic and I’m not claiming my personal experience is comprehensive. Biden is the only Pro-Choice Catholic I’ve ever known of. Most people I know don’t even consider Biden a true Catholic because of his stances.
Pelosi is also a pro choice Catholic.
that has more to do with evangelicals and events some catholics got conned by corporate interests in the early 30s in response to what FDR was doing with the new deal and the sweeping socialist thinking going around in churches at that time. read up on James W. Fifield Jr and NAM ( National Association of Manufacturers) you will see the destruction of US churches and the rise of the mega church and the 700 club.
Ended up? Shit, Protestants started out way more strict. You’d have to worry about being beaten to death if you had any images of Mary or Jesus during the Great Iconoclasm. Most of the Protestants sects back then did not think Catholicism was strict enough.
Evangelicals are an almost entirely US phenomenon. In the rest of the world, Protestant countries like Germany and the UK are more liberal than Catholic countries like Ireland and Italy. For example, Italy “legalised” abortion in 1978 but the vast majority of gynaecologists refuse to perform them on religious grounds. Ireland didn’t legalise until… 2019!
Lol at UK being more liberal than Ireland! Yes in terms of their abortion laws they were very behind until recently, but in every other way I can think of Ireland has been way more progressive. UK politics meanwhile (driven by middle England Sun readers) busy trying to brexit ourselves back to the spirit of the blitz or something. Can’t wait to get my blue passport, God save the king!
Think of it as two different tribes
Catholics and Protestants are two different tribes. They’re all Christians.
The Christians are just whiny Catholics. Protesting all day.
They mean Catholics and Protestants but they’re morons and their religious leaders have convinced them that Catholics are somehow not Christians.
As a Protestant Christian, it doesn’t make any sense. I think it is just idiotic evangelical puritans being idiotic evangelical puritans.
However it is worth mentioning Catholics and Orthodox people don’t allow each other or Protestants to take communion. (Catholics might allow Orthodox but maybe orthodoxy forbids their own members, I don’t know that one)
You are correct, Catholics are a subset of Christianity… But similarly how people assume a “doctor” is a medical practitioner, Christians has become the informal name for “Protestant” or “evangelicals”
Basically “Christians” tend to mean, anything not “Catholic” (which is old school, visibly indistinguible from others in the Christendom)
Wow. Zero information.
But if Eastern Orthodox counts as “Christian” while Catholicism doesn’t, that destroys the reasoning. If Eastern Orthodox doesn’t count, then you’re just referring to Protestants.
I don’t think there’s any explanation other than anti-Catholic bias, Protestants just want to claim their way of doing Christianity is the only way.
Basically “Christians” tend to mean, anything not “Catholic”
This is insanity. This is a purely American thing.
Catholic my nuts
As an ex catholic who grew up near Protestant land, it’s because they don’t think of Catholics as Christians. Some think of them as more like Mormons, others more like Satanists. The plus side is that it was a great card to pull to these people when they proselytized. They’ll tell Protestants they need a better version of jesus, but Catholics scare them.
Growing up in west Texas, I talked to one uber-Baptist who for some unfathomable reason believed that the Catholics “worship Mary”, therefore they don’t follow the “there is only one God” rule and therefore aren’t Christian.
Yeah. The Southern Baptist sect was literally founded on the belief that chattel slavery was a good and “godly” thing, it doesn’t get better from there. A woman having any deference is pretty offensive to them (the woman’s “place” being purely in service of the patriarch of the family, whether husband or father). Mary being venerated as a saint is pure anathema.
I grew up protestant, this is 100% correct haha
