For example, I’m using Debian, and I think we could learn a thing or two from Mint about how to make it “friendlier” for new users. I often see Mint recommended to new users, but rarely Debian, which has a goal to be “the universal operating system”.
I also think we could learn website design from… looks at notes …everyone else.
Arch could use better standard MAC security applied to systemd units like Debian does.
Arch could have an easy few clicks installer, something like a default modern setup.
Live kernel patching.archinstall script worked good for me, i installed arch on 2 kvm yesterday, i just filled blank this script offers and everything was done without me, only one advice, include your users in sudoers file as script doesn’t do that automatically, also there’s gentooinstall script derived from archinstall one
I’d really like it if Fedora didn’t discourage packaging static libs, but still discouraged building packages with static libs. It’d be nice to have them for development purposes.
I also wish they made “third party” software a bit easier to access in their installer and distro as a whole. The option to enable Nvidia drivers is buried, and even though flathub is now unrestricted when toggled in the installer, it’s not the first priority when prompted for software to install in gnome software.
A longer support cycle with less releases would also be nice, but would defeat the purpose of the distro. I guess it’d make more sense if CentOS Stream released more frequently and with more packages available in EPEL, similar to Ubuntu.
The option to enable Nvidia drivers is buried
You just type Nvidia into Software. They’ll never promote it unfortunately.
Gentoo - patience.
But seriously. With theUSE
flags, compiler options, you can understand software more from a developer’s point of view.
You can try to optimize software for your hardware.
Fully explore theconfigure
options. With a binary package you have no control.How are those new binary applications coming along? is it feasible to mix. I don’t want to compile everything.
Quite useful if you don’t mess with the
USE
. I can be mixed.
I recently tested the binary option, I set desired profile (eselect profile list
) and it just worked™.
Some applications still require manual compilation, e.g.llvm
,gcc
,systemd
.
Everything from each other. Almost no distro will ever be extremely effective at doing anything that is literally impossible on any other distro.
You might like vanilla then. It has containers for each distro, I’m pretty sure.
Just installed Debian today. Jesus the site/wiki is ugly
What’s wrong with it?
I mean… Gestures vaguely
You probably shouldn’t be accessing a linux distro’s website from mobile but yeah the site does look weird and amateur
You probably shouldn’t be accessing a linux distro’s website from mobile
Well how else am I going to access it, I borked my computer mid-install :P
You probably shouldn’t be accessing a linux distro’s website from mobile
I don’t think it’s good to hand-wave a website’s poor user experience and instead blame the user’s device. The fact of the matter is that Debian’s website is not as responsive as it could (imo, should) be and results in a bad user experience. With mobile traffic being responsible for over 55% of the internet’s traffic, it can be generally assumed a user’s first experience learning about a distro will be on a mobile device. If that first impression is bad, that can spell bad news for that distro’s adoption/onboarding.
Yeah, just curl it into aplay like the rest of us, jeez
Looks fine to me.
No excuse for websites that render poorly on mobile nowadays.
What do you mean, I’m a web dev and that looks completely normal.
Its missing tons of images, CSS and unnecessary frameworks. So no, it is not normal
For me it’s mostly that the site sprawls in unintuitive ways. It’s possible to have a simple look while being easy to navigate, for example (and this is subjective, but still) https://www.openbsd.org/
I miss when this style of website was more popular for software projects. There are plenty of projects with modern websites that still manage to do it well, but there’s just something about the instant familiarity that comes with that type of layout.
I know what you mean, I remember when debians website was like this: https://web.archive.org/web/20021122032757/http://www.debian.org/
Is it just a generation thing, or is it objectively easiler to navigate?
Sorry if my irony wasn’t too obvious. It certainly is not supposed to look that way. There are a lot of pages all over the internet that function just as garbage as this, especially on mobile. That’s why I meant it looks “normal” as in not out of the ordinary.
I don’t even see any video or infinite-scrolling pages.
Slackware - if it ain’t broken don’t fix it. Gentoo - USE flags. Mint - user-friendly.
Slackware is broken, though.
- Its releases are so far apart that the default installer stops working in between releases cause it can’t handle the changes to the repos.
- Its default software selection is outdated, makes no sense (multiple tools for the same task), and is grouped illogically. If I want to run Xfce, I shouldn’t have to install the KDE group to satisfy necessary dependencies. If I install the base group, all dependencies for using the package manager should be satisified. And Libreoffice shouldn’t be installable only via an unofficial, unsupported third party repo.
- Its documentation is so outdated it isn’t useful anymore:
https://docs.slackware.com/howtos:slackware_admin:installing_on_uefi_hardware
“Some modern computers have started to offer motherboards that use Unified Extensible Firmware Interface (UEFI) as a replacement for the traditional BIOS.”
Don’t use it.
I did use it for a while, then switched to something else.
Still have a soft spot for it in my heart, I just wish they’d modernize a little.
Slackware needs to learn how to be hip like arch. I’m the baby in our irc group, and I’m 40. All the cool kids are using arch BTW.
Never cared much about trends.
It’s nice to find another slacker in the wild.
Fedora, NixOS and Void need a proper wiki like Arch
Most distros could also learn from Arch and create something similar to the AUR. Nix is going in the right direction.
And I guess almost all distros could learn from Artix and Devuan and reconsider if systemd is the right choice.
NixOS is at least starting to work on a new wiki. The old one is gone and is only accessible from archive.org.
The Debian Wiki is so much better than the Arch one.
This has to be bait.
It is not
Absolutely not
Not approachable at all.
Seconded. NixOS’s documentation has consistently been the worst I’ve read, always forcing me to go to the source code to try and understand what in the world is happening. It makes quick changes to new things nigh impossible. I had to resort to taking notes when I understood things about nix in order to retain the knowledge or at least link to where I could easily regain it.
The nixos wiki was marginally better and https://nixlang.wiki/ has been better. However the latter is less known so has less content. All in all, nix documentation is still bad.
Anti Commercial AI thingy
NixOS has the best concept AMD even pioneered it, but whether its implementation and documentation is perfect is a topic for debate.
However, it’s been quite long since I had to fiddle with my config and add such, the downsides don’t really affect one on a daily basis. In fact, I recently reinstalled my machine to change the root filesystem and it was an absolute breeze. If not for secure boot, it would have been absolutely trivial, and with secure boot it was easy and convenient.
As such, I consider the pains an investment into system that runs much better down the road. Though I’d love it if these pains were reduced.
NixOS has the best concept AMD even pioneered it,
I’m assuming “AMD” is a typo?
Anti Commercial AI thingy
Yes! Apologies, didn’t proofread what my phone produced from swiping
honestly I wished the arch wiki turned into a distro agnostic wiki. i have been using debian for decades and use arch wiki all the time but it would be nice to have a one stop shop for linux documentation. the Wikipedia of Linux run as a coalition.
Most distros could also learn from Arch and create something similar to the AUR.
i’ve seen Void’s
xbps-src
tool compared to the AUR multiple times in /r/voidlinux (and i guess it’s like a decentralized AUR?? you can build+install pkgs from source using the package manager, sure, but there’s no one big diy xbps packages registry like aur.archlinux.org for Void) and while i don’t really see it, if you follow that train of thought, void’s pretty set in the “right direction” :D
The universal operating system keeps dropping support for archs few people use… how universal, eh?
Ya, that bothers me too. Not enough to contribute time to prevent it though. So, I do not have much moral standing to complain.
I usually use Fedora these days and I have few complaints but I sometimes miss the ArchWiki. Not that Federa isn’t well-documented — it obviously is well documented by nature of being a RedHat product — but people in the Arch community will sometimes make a whole page to document how they fixed a specific laptop model’s relatively unimportant hardware compatibility issue.
I’m on Fedora too and quite often end up on the Arch wiki. A lot of the stuff there applies on other distros too.
Fedora Atomic Desktop, mainly KDE.
- Fedora adds their pretty useless Fedora Flatpak repo, that is more secure but has unofficial packages, an additional runtime in RAM and a very small set of apps (they need it due to “legal problems” when preinstalling apps. Like… just dont preinstall them but add a startup page to install them manually?)
- There is no good way to use NVIDIA as it needs proprietary drivers and some tweaks. Ublue fixes that. Same with other out-of-tree stuff. Not really their fault, but be aware that atomic Fedora has basically no proprietary NVIDIA driver support.
- i think their kernel is extremely bloated, I would prefer having separate ones for only intel, amd, nouveau and also removing all the legacy hardware drivers nobody uses
- an x86_64-v4 (or at least v3) variant would be really necessary (my 2012 Thinkpad is v3)
- they will likely prefer to use flatpak firefox, just like ublue does, ignoring the inability to sandbox processes at all. This is the list of issues that need solving until Firefox “can be shipped as flatpak”
- they use toolbx (with that silly rename from “toolbox”) instead of distrobox. Distrobox has way more critical features like a separate home, which prevents breakages through conflicting dotfiles. Toolbx is the worse product.
Also, their traditional KDE variant is very bloated, which is why I updated this guide
But overall its still my favourite distro. Has a nice community, all the desktops you want, SELinux (which is btw required to make Waydroid somewhat secure) and their atomic stuff is an awesome base thanks to ublue.
You mention that their kernel is bloated, would you mind sharing how you measure it compared to other kernels. Such as their kernel vs something more trimmed down. Is it a storage space savings or memory? I’ve never really considered the weight of a kernel when considering different distros so if you have some method I’d love to try and compare what I’m running.
I have no comparisons as I think all distros ship the complete monolithic kernel. Of course specific IOT devices or Android ship a very much smaller kernel.
Building the kernel is not that hard, as you have
kernel-devel
which has all the sources.You can use
make menuconfig
and see what all is enabled (as far as I understood this) and change stuff before compiling.Monolithic kernels are pretty bad, see this excerpt of the interview with Jeremy Soller on RedoxOS.
So I dont mind memory or even less storage space, as the kernel poorly is not relevant at all here. I just care about keeping the root binary with access to all my stuff as small as possible.
I would love a system that detects the used hardware and then builds the correct small kernel for it. There are experiments making the CentOS LTS kernel work on Fedora, which would prevent many recompilations.
Building the kernel is not that hard, as you have
kernel-devel
which has all the sources.Yeah. Some myth that it’s hard to do is not why we end up with monolithic kernels. Like any case where you find yourself thinking “it doesn’t look that hard; I could do that easily”, it’s either harder than it looks or it’s done a certain way for an entirely different reason you haven’t figured out.
You should learn that reason.
If you don’t mind me asking, then how do you know the kernel they use is bloated compared to any other kernel? A vast majority of the device-list stuff is loaded only when that device is detected with kernel modules. You aren’t actually running everything from the entire kernel, it just has support for the devices if it does detect them. which is basically the functionality you are asking for, ad-hoc device modules.
Monolithic kernels aren’t “bad”. That’s subjective. Monolithic kernels have measurable and significant performance benefits, over micro kernels. You also gain a massive complexity reduction. Micro kernels, historically, have not been very successful, e.g. Hurd, because that complexity management is extremely difficult. Not impossible, but so far kernel development has favored monolithic kernels not without reason.
If what you say is actually that easy, why wouldn’t all distro’s just do that during the install, and during updates with their package managers? I believe you could do this in Gentoo, but I don’t know if it has measurable benefits beyond what performance tuning for your specific CPU arch would give you. Since none of those devices you aren’t running are consuming any resources beyond the storage space of the kernel.
It wouldn’t be too difficult™ to fork their kernel and make custom configs of it. Here’s the git repo that holds their rpms and their respective kernel configs, it’s just that nobody has cared enough to create/propose “slimmed down” specialized kernel images: https://src.fedoraproject.org/rpms/kernel/tree/rawhide You can just clone the repo and point COPR to it, then automatically build custom kernels.
Awhile ago there was a proposal to move the x86 microarchitecture level. Here’s recent discussion on that proposal: https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/what-happened-to-bumping-the-minimum-supported-architecture-from-x86-64-to-x86-64-v2/96787/2
In general, though, Fedora would not want to leave any users behind. Instead, the proposal for
hwcaps
is currently being drafted: https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/3151 With hwcaps, default installs will be x86_64 v1, but will be upgraded to “optimized” packages if available upon updating. This makes packaging a bit awkward, though. Packagers already need to maintain packages for multiple versions of the distro. In fact, they need to support F38, F39, F40, and rawhide atm. Needing to maintain an extra 3 builds for each package on top of x86, x64, aarch64, ppc64le, and s390x is a bit of a burden, so success might be limited.Distrobox, while feature-rich, is still a bit hacky (though it’s still more reliable in my experience than toolbx). You’re not the first to want this, though: https://github.com/fedora-silverblue/issue-tracker/issues/440
Secureblue removes a good amount of unused kernel component, and even some useful ones like bluetooth and thunderbolts, but you can always manually enable them.
Yes thar is the direction I am going to. But they just disable kernel modules from running, I dont know if that is as complete as simply not building them.
But if its possible, then everyone with amd or intel should block nouveau, and vice versa. Just keep it small.
Yeah, this is the old philosophy of the “run anywhere” philosophy of linux (or computers in general) that got us here. Another problem with stripping down kernel drivers is that swapping hardware component will require rebuilding the kernel, which regular user will definitely not be happy about.
It would be a problem because of how it is currently done.
I imagine an install ISO to have a monokernel, build the kernel-building-system and detect the needed drivers. Save the config and build the matching kernel from that.
Now if you want to swap hardware, there is a transition tool within the OS that allows to state the wanted hardware component and remove the old driver from the config.
Or you switch to a monokernel and run the hardware detection and config change again.
Or you use the install USB stick (which you already have) which already uses a monokernel and has a feature to detect hardware, change the config on the OS, build and install the kernel to the OS.
This is a bit more complex than for example what fedora plans with their new WebUI installer. Poorly such a system also doesnt work that well with so many kernel updates.
I am not an expert, but I feel like rebuilding the kernel is probably too slow for most user.
And kernel already dynamically load the kernel module, then disabling them would practically make sure they will not be loaded.
I feel like we don’t need to go down to micro-kernel to solve the problem of loading too many drivers.
What I really like about stuff like RedoxOS, COSMIC, typst, simpleX, Wayland and others is having stuff built from a modern perspective with modern practices.
Linux is ancient now, and its a miracle that it is thriving like this.
If dynamic loading really is that robust, it probably doesnt matter. But I dont know how big the performance increases are and I really need to do benchmarks before and after.
There are btw also some experiments on making tbe CentOS-Stream LTS kernel run on Fedora. Which would be another great way of getting a more stable system.
All distros, or none: flatpak has to improve in regards to launching an app from terminal. Following is a joke:
flatpak run com.github.iwalton3.jellyfin-media-player
There’s a reason security people don’t use flatpak, but that’s not it.
This is extremely simple to fix with scripts that can be automatically created on install time. Here is a quick script I just wrote. It will search for first matching app and run it. Just save the script as flatrun, give it executable bit and put it into $PATH. Run it as like this:
flatrun freetube
#!/usr/bin/env bash # flatrun e # flatrun freetube if [ "${#}" -eq 0 ]; then flatpak list --app --columns=name,application else app="$( flatpak list --app --columns=name,application | grep -i -F "${@}" | awk -F'\t' '{print $2}' )" if [ -z "${app}" ]; then flatpak list --app --columns=name,application elif [[ "$(echo "${app}" | wc -l)" -gt 1 ]]; then echo "${app}" else flatpak run "${app}" fi fi
Edit: Just updated the script to output the list of matching apps, if it matches more than one.
That’s super. Thanks for sharing.
Yes and I did a similar script but “just create a script” is a really bad solution.
Apps should need to declare a shortname and flatpak should have a shortcut for those with a separated command like flatrun.
I personally don’t think that creating a script is a bad solution. The entire Linux eco system is based around composable components (especially when we talk about terminal commands). Most of the Flatpak applications are available through GUI menus (.desktop files) and that’s the focus of Flatpak. And I think it’s a design decision not to expose every application as a separate program in the $PATH by default. This way there is less of a chance to collide with anything random on the system, if they have the same name.
Having said this, I still agree it would be beneficial for most users if there was a way to automatically create scripts in a special
bin
folder, that is available in the $PATH. The problem is, what application name should it have? What about different versions of the same program? The entire Flatpak concept was not designed for this, so creating a script for your personal use is not a bad solution.Repeating, apps should need to declare a shortname. I think my script currently has no mechanism for detecting duplicates
Please read my reply before you repeat. How should the different versions of an application be handled? What if the shortname is already taken? There will be collisions, which the longname tries to solve. Flatpak is not a repository where all names can be checked against, this is the job of a repository like Flathub. What about different versions of an application?
This is not a simple case of forcing to specify shortnames.
I think a good solution would to just have that script autogenerated by the flatpak, honestly.
That would mean the app has access to the path, which was explained as insecure in another place
flatpak run com.github.iwalton3.jellyfin-media-player
You can use
/var/lib/flatpak/exports/bin/com.github.iwalton3.jellyfin-media-player
instead. and then create aliases or symlinks (for example in ~/bin/) for that.Wow I was not aware of that folder! Thanks.
@lemmyreader @barbara it’s a bit annoying but I kinda like that I have to manually link it a bit. So I create sh scripts in the usr/local/bin that just execute the flatpak run command
https://github.com/boredsquirrel/flatalias
Or my PR for that, that makes aliases on every login. I just have to fix it to work with user flatpaks as well: https://github.com/bjoern-tantau/flatalias/tree/patch-1
It would be pretty neat if they did like zsh does, where it asks you if you mean a certain command when you only type it partially.
It’d be dangerous if an installed app claimed to be something like sudo or bash. Even if a mechanism was created for flatpak apps to claim a single shell command, there is no centralized authority on all flatpak apps to vet them. If there was for flathub, and each uploaded package was checked, that still leaves every other non-flathub flatpak repo which must implement the same vetting. Because there’s no way to guarantee to do it safely, and because flatpak devs are unwilling to compromise, this is just what we get.
However in the same way, compromised flatpak app can also put a malicious .desktop file in
~/.share/applications
, which also allows execution of arbitrary command, even outside of the flatpak sandbox.User home permission is just incredibly dangerous on linux, I think we need special permission to explicitly allow access to these folders in home. Fortunately more and more app starts to support portal, which makes them much more secure.
Although, I do wish portal would have a edit per session vs edit forever option. For now if you open a folder through portal, the app was granted r/w permission to that folder forever.
Why can’t the installation create aliases like
flatpak run jellyfin-media-player
? And then highlight conflicts during?Ask the devs. I haven’t bothered asking so far. There’s fp https://github.com/DLopezJr/fp but I don’t like workaround if it’s easily fixed upstream and it’s not like they wouldn’t know that it’s bullshit. Maybe they can’t decide upon a solution. Or are waiting for another important and relevant update.
It would also be nice if it could alias to the normal command, for example, LibreOffice with CLI commands like lowriter or localc.
Did you know you can evoke LibreOffice from the terminal to convert one file format to another? It can do what Pandoc does, but also works on old .doc files. Flatpak’s weird CLI behavior makes it difficult to use though.
Debian is so hecking unstable for me omg… For some reason it just doesn’t play well with any hardware setup I’ve ever tried.
Anyways, I use arch Linux which could REALLY do with a nice wiki overhaul by now. It’s not beginner friendly AT ALL! Been using the same install for almost 3 years now I think, but man… When I have to figure out something, the wiki isn’t the first thing I’ll go anymore.
That’s like saying you don’t get pyramids because they tip over so easily. It sounds like a you problem.
Lmao
If Debian fails in the same predictable way every time, for the same reason, it could be argued that it’s very stable, just not functional :) What kind of hardware do you use by the way?
It fails to run after a few days on several different laptops I’ve tried it on. Also on my main computer which is an amd 3900x with 64gb ram and a 3090. Arch however works perfectly fine, which is odd as heck
The Arch Linux wiki has been the best source for information for a long time for me. Many years ago the Gentoo wiki was good as well, till they lost all content and had to start from scratch.
[…] till they lost all content and had to start from scratch.
What happened? Now you got me curious
Let’s see. 15 years. Hosting company didn’t pay the bills. All gone. No backups.
If the gentoo wiki did not exist back then I would probably not be as deep into linux as I am today. Insane loss that.
I use Debian but still use the Arch wiki quite often. It’s a great resource. I improve Debian’s wiki where I can (eg I wrote a few sections on this page: https://wiki.debian.org/NFSServerSetup) but it’s just not the same.
Downvote because i like the arch wiki very much and it was beginner friendly enough for me, tho (installed arch as a noob recently)
(Well I did not really downvote to be honest, but if I did, that would be the reason)
Hm, weird. I tried following to wiki to fix some Bluetooth issues I had. It didn’t fix my issue and on top of that it’s all over the place.
Man, I feel like some people treat the wiki as a hecking Bible omg…
Hmm… well… I don’t know, I just almost every time find my solution there and generally I just google xxx arch linux using DDGO. 💁🏻♀️ maybe it’s not for every kind of person 🤔
Idk about instability but in my experience it always required the highest amount of work to fix and set up (on very different machines) compared to other distros smh
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NixOS with YaST support would indeed be an incredibly powerful setup. It would make the whole Nix ecosystem significantly more beginner friendly and even for someone who wants to be a poweruser. It would be really nice to have config options laid out for you in a UI. Most of the time I have to have the options search, and package search websites open because there’s no easy way to get those lists within the console.
Give me immutable, declarative Arch.
What do you miss in NixOS (Unstable)?
I think a declarative, atomic LTS distro (e.g. Alma) would be quite nice for business use.
I’ve been messing about with NixOS for the past 2 weeks or so. While I think I know enough to plug in the right text in the right spots to get a system configured I feel like I understand nothing about the nix language and the syntax is extremely unintuitive to me. If another distro offered declarative configuration as well as something like Nix’s options I would easily swap away from NixOS at this point.
I feel like I understand nothing about the nix language
Pure lazy unityped lambda calculus, basically a lazy lisp with records instead of lists. Or a pure, lazy, lua.
Pure is important because reproducibility, lazy is important to not have to evaluate all of nixpkgs before you can build anything, lambda calculus well it needs to be turing complete, support things like functions in in some way though TC is only used very, very very deep down in the system. They literally use the y-combinator to do recursion, like when bootstrapping stdenv.
The syntax is unintuitive, yes, but aside from the semicolon cancer actually not that bad. My biggest gripe with the language is it not having a proper type system, like you put a list where a string is expected or the other way around and you get five screenfuls of backtrace through the whole evaluation stack and due to laziness the actual location of the error might not even be in there.
I gather that not everything is compatible with nixOS, and it’s better as a server than for development or as a general OS.
I didn’t know Alma was declarative.
Makes sense.
No, I wish for something like Alma, but declarative and atomic :)
It’s something we might see with the next EL release cycle.
rpm-ostree
has treefiles complete with the option for (experimental) lockfiles. There’s already config files for CentOS Stream to build CentOS Stream CoreOS, and those can be adapted for Alma. I think, atm, it’s more of an issue of general interest than technical limitations.
NixOS on your mind too? lol
Yep
I think that’s what BlendOS is working towards. You might keep an eye on them.
Oh nice. This looks promising. I’m guessing it’s not totally ready yet?
It may be ready, I haven’t tried their latest version. Most of the functionality was there, but it had some rough spots. I’ve been meaning to go back and try daily driving it again.
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