Hello! I’ve been searching for a reddit alternative, and yes, I’ve picked Lemmy and Raddle, but here’s the thing. My morbid curiosity is perked up, and a part of me wants to join the “free speech” alternatives, like Saidit, Poal, etc. What’s wrong with me that I want to join toxic places? I mean, yes I’ll find a whole new perspective (albeit wrong), on political topics, but a part of me wants to be the antagonist, and post lefty memes, and music with a left-leaning message (bands from r/rabm) I know that’s like kicking the hornet’s nest, so you don’t need to start in with “that’s a bad idea” I know it is. My main point/question is, is it wrong to join a site with potential hate speech? Does it make someone a bad person?
People just don’t understand. Because society prohibits exhibitions of hatred, those are most likely to seek out places that do allow it. The desired “freedom” aspect of society-free judgement is why you encounter them more often in these type of forums. And when you got there to “repress” them, it’s seen as the claws of society invading one of the few avenues that allow venting their frustrations.
Think of it like this, everywhere you go there’s rules, rules, rules! You’re stuck doing a job you don’t like to pay bills that keep growing, having to play nice with people you barely get along with 5 to 7 days a week and only an online forum to let you vent off your stress. But then some bozo shows up and yells “no, you can’t do that!”. Wouldn’t that just make you angry?
This isn’t about the correct thing to vent about, it’s about being allowed to vent. When you tell someone they’re not allowed to do something because it’s bad, it usually comes off as taking away their sense of agency, and that just makes them more hateful.
Maybe it’s just my way of thinking, but if someone says “you can’t do that” I usually stop doing that and shut down, because it’s not allowed. I have autism, so that my play a role in it, but my go to response is to just shut down usually and stop doing that thing or avoid it all together.
r/TalesFromYourServer: Kicking a Nazi out as soon as they walk in
I was at a shitty crustpunk bar once getting an after-work beer. One of those shitholes where the bartenders clearly hate you. So the bartender and I were ignoring one another when someone sits next to me and he immediately says, “no. get out.”
And the dude next to me says, “hey i’m not doing anything, i’m a paying customer.” and the bartender reaches under the counter for a bat or something and says, “out. now.” and the dude leaves, kind of yelling. And he was dressed in a punk uniform, I noticed
Anyway, I asked what that was about and the bartender was like, “you didn’t see his vest but it was all nazi shit. Iron crosses and stuff. You get to recognize them.”
And i was like, ohok and he continues.
"you have to nip it in the bud immediately. These guys come in and it’s always a nice, polite one. And you serve them because you don’t want to cause a scene. And then they become a regular and after awhile they bring a friend. And that dude is cool too.
And then THEY bring friends and the friends bring friends and they stop being cool and then you realize, oh shit, this is a Nazi bar now. And it’s too late because they’re entrenched and if you try to kick them out, they cause a PROBLEM. So you have to shut them down.
And i was like, ‘oh damn.’ and he said “yeah, you have to ignore their reasonable arguments because their end goal is to be terrible, awful people.”
And then he went back to ignoring me. But I haven’t forgotten that at all.
I understand that, I really do. However, what if you change nazi memorabilia with LGBT+ stuff? Is the bartender still correct in doing so?
Or change the LGBT+ stuff to any kind of recognizable symbols of a certain group. Is it still the paradox of tolerance or is it now the paradox of intolerance? Note that this isn’t something leading. I am asking as a question that I don’t know the answer to.
I know that some groups shouldn’t be tolerated in a society they want to destroy. But here’s the thing, we can’t not live with them. If we as a society, destroy or segregate groups of a defining nature, don’t we become exactly that which we claim to prevent? And once this type of action starts, can we be sure it will stop there? Who will be the judge, how will they enforce it and for whom?
Anyway, I understand the tale and it’s the bartender’s right to do so.
They’re not looking for freedom of speech but freedom from consequences.
You’ll get banned there real quick.
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Does Saidit and Poal work the same as Lemmy that way?
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wtf is freedom of speech if not a freedom of consequences from what you say?
Freedom of speech is only freedom from government-sponsored consequences. As a member of We The People, you control the government. It is not democratic for the government to control you.
Freedom of Speech does not impose a limitation on me, a private individual, from taking action against you on the basis of your speech. I’ll defend your right to say whatever the hell you want, but I don’t have to give you my soapbox to stand on.
People telling you you’re and arsehole and treating you like what arsehole is then expressing their freedom of speech.
It’s also a consequence of your speech.
That’s fair but I don’t think there’s much freedom of speech if someone will murder you for what you’ve said
Where the fuck did murder come from?
That’s a possible outcome that I subconciously included in the list of consequences
I mean sure, if you leap all the way from 0 to 1,000 for no reason.
No reason? Being murdered is still a consequence, isn’t it? Why wouldn’t I include it?
There is a distinct difference.
Freedom of speach means that the government can’t punnish you for talking shit, except in limited circumstances.
Freedom of consequences from what you say, means that no one should be allowed to let what your say affect them in any way, this means that no one would be allowed to be offended by what you might say, nor that they would be allowed to act on such offence.
In a functional society you want to have freedom of speach, but not freedom of consequences from what you say. This allows you to express opposing views in mostly resonable ways.
That’s a very narrow definition of freedom of speech.
It’s actually quite a common view outside of the USA, in my experience. Even the “limited restrictions” for governments to arrest you over speech can be quite wide, there are a lot of people in the world that want to ban blasphemy for instance (of their specific religion).
The limited restrictions in the US is that you can’t for example yell “Fire!” in a room to try and cause panic.
Here in Sweden, we also have hate speech laws, which basically comes down to “You can’t incite violence toward an ethnic group”
As long as the consequences are words and non-violent actions. Advocating violence as a consequence for someone expressing an idea is imho dangerous and should be avoided.
it is dangerous, but so is speech that incites violence even if the perpetrator himself isn’t directly doing it. its a fine line to tread.
case in point: i don’t think goebbels ever directly killed or harmed anyone, but his speech caused a lot of death and suffering, and someone like him should absolutely not be dealt with just words. keep in mind his propaganda techniques are still alive today.
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Sounds like a waste of precious time
I guess lots of people can relate to this on Tw(X)tter. After it was bought by mister X. it went downhill. Still a lot of left leaning people are on it with the idea to fight from within (or because they think “everyone is on it” or “important people are there”. Personally I think it is a lost cause and would leave as soon as possible. Apart from that do not underestimate how you can be influenced if you don’t do fact checking. A person I know told me year ago that they liked to read on a far right forum years (for fun or something) and is now like “yeah, I also think migration is a bit of problem”. Go figure :(
You can if you want. You’ll certainly find new perspectives however you will be unlikely to get any good discussion. If you go there to antagonize they will simply ban you as they don’t want lefty memes or left leaning messages.
I don’t think being on the same platform as hate speech makes you a bad person. You’re only wasting your time and exposing your self to needless hate and toxicity.
The “free speech” instances are just cesspools of a different shade. Sticking to any one singular platform, you’ll eventually notice them start to slide towards a groupthink/echochamber of sorts, regardless of the focus of the instance.
Easiest way is to just browse multiple instances of different types. At least the unhinged insanity of each side cancels each other out for the most part.
Places that advertise themselves as being free speech
- Expectation: You are free to say whatever you please
- Reality: Oops! All CSAM/racism where you get banned on a hair
part of me wants to be the antagonist, and post lefty memes, and music with a left-leaning message
that can be this very instance on lemmy.ml or many many others right here, like hexbear, blahaj and such. its generally not worth your time to go to free-speech code-for-fascism sites because at best you will be banned. if you really wanna troll them, you wont be effective unless you organize.
if you really want to be a masochist, go to 4chan or something, its where most of them probably are publicly.
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https://sites.google.com/vanillaegiftcardbalance.org/vanillagiftcardbalancee/It doesn’t make you a bad person but it’s not a healthy way to spend your time. It creates a feedback loop of finding things that upset you, ineffectually combating them, getting upset at the lack of positive results, and trying to fix that dissatisfaction by finding more things that upset you to fight against. You’ll think of it as a way to entertain yourself but, on balance, you’re the one getting the most stressed out by it.
If you want to troll the far right, you’re better off trying to do that in spaces where other people can see you doing it because that has an actual possibility of affecting their behavior. Real life, for example.
Go into chud spaces and generally be a wrecker. Accuse various factions of being feds/antifa false flag/etc.
That’s a bad idea and you’re a bad person.
Join Hexbear, all of Lemmy says it’s the most toxic instance if that’s what you want.
They are not really “free speech” sites, they are fascist sites. They will use your left wing posts as rhetorical proof of their openness until such a time that your antagonism gains any traction at which point they will promptly censor you as they do not really have any ideals. The game is rigged, post on a fascist site and you will be a tool for fascism.
Lemmy was built explicitly in recognition of this fact for the master’s tool will never dismantle the master’s house.
Since when is Saidit a fascist site?
They just explained it to you.
I haven’t seen any of what they said on Saidit.
Took me like 3 seconds to find mask off white supremacists on there.
CW: racism.
https://saidit.net/s/news/comments/cncv/wealthy_white_louisiana_residents_win_right_to/
I click on it’s front page and immediately see anti-semitism, racism, more anti-semitism and transphobic and queerphobic hatespeech.
Hmm wonder why you are rushing to it’s defense?
oh what do you know, you’ve previously defended neonazi lemmy instances like explodingheads with whataboutism arguments and have multiple bans for bigotry.
“free speech” absolutists just being nazis yet againlmao owned. Ban this mfer.
Say something wrong about co**unism or any s country practicing it here and you’ll see how free speech works, that’s your only warning, you won’t get an official one, that’s not how moderation works here, no matter what their COC says
Well at least you admit that you’re wrong about communism.
You better keep our Communist COCs out of your fucking mouth.
Learn how to mask your IP using VPNs or other open proxies before any of that.
Also tracking protection in the browser to prevent reading browser history and such. Security and privacy practices are absolutely paramount if you’re planning on visiting services like that. Of course the best thing is to not visit them at all but some people feel they need to see it for themselves, if they choose they should be prepared and keep themselves safe.
