Quite the unpopular opinion, but I just wanted to post this to show the silent majority that we still exist. We have reached a point where voicing criticism against wayland is treated like the worst thing ever and leads you to being censored and what not. The red hat funded multi year long shill campaign has proven to be quite successful. Now do the same for immutable distros and every new buzzword that restricts your ability to make changes to your system and the long term plan of completely sabotaging the linux desktop will finally come true. That is all.
Did you just create this account just to spew your hatred of Wayland without any explanations as to why? Get a life lmao. You’re just a moron with an irrational hatred for change.
>hurr durr let me look at his post history to find material to bitch about
>nothing? heh at least let me point that out for muh updoots
Pathetic
You posted this exact post before.
hurr durr
Really?
The paid moderators keep deleting my posts just becuase of slighly criticising red hat. What do you want me to do? Expect replies from a deleted post?
This is called a paranoid delusion.
Nobody. Cares.
What do you want me to do?
I want you to keep the conversation civil and to rely on evidence-based arguments and pathways.
The paid moderators keep deleting my posts
If you find your voice silenced in a community, there are ways to build a community yourself. Freedom of association and freedom of speech dictate that no one is forced to listen though, communication happens best voluntarially. I value the work of moderators and understand the value of its remuneration - paying moderators does not equal silencing, especially on the Fediverse.
That’s a lot of buzzwords that ultimately mean nothing
Paid moderators? Why do you think they get paid? Who do you think is paying them?
Red hat employees have infiltrated moderation teams of various forums. This has been done on reddit and now the plague has spread here too.
Do you really believe this? Red hat is paying people to shill for them on lemmy? I don’t suppose I could trouble you for some evidence of that, could I?
Ah yes, everyone who disagrees is a shill. How productive.
The funny thing is, the people in the comments have done a much better job than you at providing actual arguments as to why Wayland isn’t great.
But here’s the thing about Wayland: it can and will get better. Unlike X11, the codebase of the various Wayland compositors isn’t 30 years of hack after hack making it an unmaintainable mess.
If we want to make desktop experiences that rival Windows and MacOS, we have to make these kinds of changes. If we want to adapt to changing computing landscapes, we have to make these changes.
Wayland isn’t perfect but the Linux desktop world is in a much better place with it than without it.
The only thing pathetic here is you. You’d realise that if you weren’t such a whiney bitch. If you don’t want to use Wayland, just don’t use it. No one’s shoving it down your throat. But no need to whine like a bitch.
Your attitude and constant insults are much worse.
Is that so? Well, then I am sorry for slightly insulting someone who’s been spamming hate posts, throwing ridiculous allegations like Wayland goal apparently being sabotaging Linux, spreading various misinformations, calling everyone a shill, etc. I should’ve hugged him instead. My bad. I apologize.
It’s alright
- I wasn’t talking to you.
- The comment was ironic.
It’s fine
In my opinion, just because someone is behaving incorrectly is no reason to behave in the same way. One can also disagree with someone without using terms like moron or whiny bitch.
I’m using Fedora Atomic Budgie right now, and I’m of the viewpoint that I want my system to be my system. That is why I used Arch / Artix for so long.
Eventually however, I tried out Atomic distros in VMs and initially disliked their “restrictive” nature. But after too many random breakages on Arch, I went for it on my desktop as I imagined it’d be good for reliability.
That was about 2 months ago, and the very same install is still going strong on my desktop and now laptop too (which I’m writing this on). That is hands-down the longest a single instance has continued to exist for me. I love it.
I think we need to reconsider everything about the “Linux desktop” we all dream of. Let’s say we get 60% of existing Windows users onto our side in the next 5 years. That is a lot of people. Too many people for us to assume they’re all willing to embrace the total freedom we advertise. This is where we need to go, we need more standardization across the board. I’m almost at the point where I’d only recommend Atomic distros to new users, as new users are going to be scared off if something spontaneously breaks. New users are also going to be inquisitive, so they may cause breakages.
Wayland is just overall the next step, X.Org is older than me, older than many of us to be honest. If projects are left abandoned due to the complexity of Wayland, oh well? The fraction of the userbase that used those projects are just gonna have to get with the times I’m afraid.
Linux needs to grow-up a bit, Windows is getting more and more enshittified by the week. Sooner or later it’s gonna reach a tipping point and people are start dropping off and coming to us. We need to prepare for an influx of “normies” essentially. Because of that, I welcome Atomicity, Wayland and other evil evil oh so terrible things that “corpos” are doing.
Immutable distros could be a future for linux, it makes it more secure, easy to use, spares your time on fixing things, etc. Two succusfull examples are chromeos and android just work. Same with my Silverblue, it just works and I won’t ever look back to common distros, I have no desire to fix things, I prefer when everything just works. It works on Wayland, it can work on X11, I dont care.
Pointing to android and chromeos as successful examples of immutable systems is a very effective way to convince some of us to avoid the immutable distros.
I mean i don’t hate them and i do acknowledge their benefits but they’re primary goal is for enterprise. Slowly many more such software will be pushed onto the average user and it might become something you cannot replace just like what happened with systemd.
Immutable distributions won’t solve the problem.
You have 3 types of testing unit (descrete part of code), integration (how a software piece works with others) and system testing (e.g. the software running in its environment). Modern software development has build chains to simplify testing all 3 levels.
Debian’s change freeze effectively puts a known state of software through system testing. The downside its effecitvely ‘free play’ testing of the software so it requires a big pool of users and a lot of time to be effective. This means software in debian can use releases up to 3 years old.
Something like Fedora relies on the test packs built into the open source software, the issue here is testing in open source world is really variable in quality. So somethinng like Fedora can pull down broken code that passes its tests and compiles.
The immutable concept is about testing a core set of utilities so you can run the containers of software on top. You haven’t stopped the code in the containers being released with bugs or breaking changes you’ve just given yourself a means to back out of it. It’s a band aid to the actual problem.
The solution is to look at core parts of the software stack and look to improve the test infrastructure, phoronix manages to run the latest Kernel’s on various types of hardware for benchmarking, why hasn’t the Linux foundation set up a computing hall to compile and run system level testing for staged changes?
Similarly website’s are largely developed with all 3 levels of testing, using things like Jest/Mocha/etc… for Unit/Integration testing and Robots/Cypress/Selenium/Storybook/etc… for system testing. While GTK and KDE apps all have unit/integration tests where are the system level test frameworks?
All this is kinda boring while ‘containers!’ is exciting new technology
why do you dislike it though?
Freedom restricting corpo funded garbage
genuinely asking how does it restrict your freedom?
Apps have to rewrite code for every compositor. This is intentionally shitty design.
it’s completely ok to not like or even hate wayland but this ain’t it. i don’t know if that’s true, but even if wayland is so shit that every compositor needs a separate compatibility patch i still don’t see how that’s restricting your freedom or app developers’ freedom or any kind of freedom. if it’s so cumbersome to support wayland then devs won’t support it and people won’t use it. no one is forcing anyone to do anything no one is ruling through software even if apps drop xorg in a free software environment people can pay developers to keep maintaining for xorg.
Last time I checked, free software respecting your freedom was about giving you the ability to redistribute it and do what you wanted with it. It wasn’t about guaranteeing compatibility
How is it restricting freedom? It gives you the choice, if you want to use it cool, if you don’t don’t. Its not like anyone is forcing you to use it.
The last thing you want is for people to fall for the shill campaign and start developing wayland exclusive apps
Why not? Its more to chose from, so more freedom. Like different distros.
You know, if you actually list factual problems you have with Wayland then it would be possible to have a discussion with you.
If you want to avoid freedom restricting corpo stuff then you better start with researching the supply chain of your phone and computer:
https://www.emergingtechbrew.com/stories/2023/06/01/forced-labor-tech-supply-chainsI fail to see what this has to do with slavery in tech supply chains
So the blog has these points listed:
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Wayland’s client API is gimped. Understandably, any piece of software has limits on its scope. I’m not criticizing that, but the limit on the scope of the Wayland ecosystem is way too small.
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Wayland’s lack of feature parity with Xorg cripples it. This brief section is now outdated and much to my surprise, the tearing protocol was actually merged thanks to Valve pushing hard for it. The text is left here for historical reasons.
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Wayland’s render loop design is ridiculous. If you build a client from ground up specifically with Wayland in mind, sure this is easy. But many applications are cross platform and internally driven.
There’s nothing wrong with an application managing how it should render internally. It’s a natural choice for any program that operates in a cross-platform manner. -
Wayland’s Mesa implementations are leagues behind Xorg’s. Both the EGL and Vulkan Mesa implementations are, quite frankly, bugged and lacking when compared to their Xorg DRI3 counterparts.
In EGL’s case, the spec isn’t violated, but swap intervals greater than 1 are completely broken.
Vulkan is more dire. The indefinite blocking behavior outright violates the Vulkan spec. Giving a timeout in AcquireImage does nothing in practice because the blocking is done in PresentQueue. Only two presentation modes on Wayland actually work: fifo (well this works by breaking the spec) and mailbox. -
Wayland itself has bad core decisions. The big and obvious mistake to point out is fractional scaling. Update: The fractional scale protocol has been merged, and it’s definitely a step forward.
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Was it really worth it? We were told all along that Xorg is so bad and terrible that it needed to be started from scratch but at this point people need to be looking in the mirror and asking questions. If that 14 years of effort was instead focused onto solely improving Xorg, what would the result be? Surely, much more tangible results would have been gained at the end of the day.
I’m not qualified to discuss render loop design or mesa implementations, but it seems 2/5 points has been rendered obsolete in the last 18 months. Progress! :)
Progress is good but the other reasons are fundamental faults of wayland. You cannot “fix” them, the only solution is to make X12. And no wayland is not X12.
Wayland isn’t trying to be X12 and since X11 has been around, there haven’t been plans for there to be an X12 either. You want to discourage people from using Wayland but don’t encourage people to contribute to X11. You’re so hellbent on taking Wayland down, rather than further convincing people that X11 is superior and it’s easier to improve.
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Sabotage linux desktop?
It’s exactly due to immutability that Linux is reaching even more people. An example is SteamOS, an immutable distro.
Common user doesn’t wanna know if he’s using X11 or Wayland, or if your distro is immutable or not. He wanna knows if the distro works and if he can do their stuff. And that’s the exactly reason why Windows is the best alternative for them.
Not everyone is tech-savy to care about the engines that make an os work or to tweak every aspect of the system. Actually this is minority.
Off course your disapointment and contempt with Wayland and immutable distros is legit. I’m not arguing against it. You have your reasons and respect it. But please, don’t jump to conclusions like “it will sabottage linux desktop” with no evidence.
This was literally posted like two days ago, the cope is real
5 days ago actually. But the jannies who are red hat employees removed it. Its sad they infiltrate not only reddit but now lemmy.
How about you make your own superior display protocol and share it with us plebs?
I recognize my inability to contribute. What I do understand is if red hat truly cared a tiny bit about desktop linux they would have intervened in the 18 year history of wayland. They’re either afraid of acknowledging the fact that 18 years went down the drain or they are doing it on purpose. Mostly the latter.
The gist you’ve shared about the problems with Wayland, that’s one of the worst things I’ve read. At least bring something good on the table to debate.
Here, let me help you - Wayland Isn’t Going to Save The Linux Desktop. Now this article is way better than the nonsense you’ve shared earlier.
I’m not informed much about the technicalities of Wayland, but it looks be the the same as Rust, with their vague specifications.
I don’t like Flatpak. I’m not really opposed to using systemd, but I don’t like the attitude of Lennart Poettering, especially with what he did to PulseAudio. However, if I had a choice, I’d prefer another init system. I wanted reproducibility and ephemeral environment. I wanted deterministic builds and meta-distribution. And that’s exactly what I did - I use Guix now.
If you don’t like Wayland, you need to fix the legacy parts in X11, you need to read whitepapers on modern drop-in replacement techniques written by postgrads and PhD folks, you need to bring other like-minded folks to work with you. That’s your responsibility. Your complaining won’t fix this “corporate” takeover.
Btw, there’s the Arcan display protocol if you don’t like Wayland. You might want to fund the dev.
Don’t use any Linux distro that has non-super users, that is a distro that restricts your ability to make changes on your system…
If you want a truly unrestricted OS experience, go daily drive TempleOS.
That actually would be nice, since you wouldn’t be able to connect to the internet anymore and we wouldn’t have to hear your pissing and moaning.
You seethe and rage against the ocean because it continues to make waves lol.
Lunch time at red hat?
I actually agree. Wayland is good on new AMD hardware with high refresh rate triple monitor setups. But on common non-gaming hardware it’s just a disadvantage, especially in terms of accessibility (yes I know it’s improving now but it’s still far from X11). If you’re an advanced Linux user, Wayland is a good thing. But if you’re a regular person who uses the computer for office work and YouTube, it is not. The problem here is that the most popular distros (Ubuntu, Fedora, RHEL) enable it by default or completely remove X11 support. If you’re a gamer and you need Wayland’s features, you’re most likely advanced enough to use it but there are limitations and bugs that regular users will not want to deal with and/or fix using terminal commands. Wayland is probably the future but it is not the today. Making it the default makes Linux desktop a little bit more of a hacky tool for geeks than it was with X11+optional Wayland support. Oh and good luck using Wayland on NVidia 800 series and older
You created a new account to repeat post the exact same text from a few days ago. You have a problem… and it ain’t Wayland. 😂
Okay, so what do you dislike about wayland from a technical standpoint? Or is it just the creator that you personally don’t like?
Okay so that’s a link. You were asked a direct question. Can you not answer it with your own words?
It’s not worth it if my post gets deleted by the time i finish writing anything
Wayland has it’s fair share of problems that haven’t been solved yet, but most of those points are nonsense.
If that person lived a little over a hundred years ago and wrote a rant about cars vs horses instead, it’d go something like this:
Think twice before abandoning Horses. Cars break everything!
Cars break if you stuff hay in the fuel tank!
Cars are incompatible with horse shoes!
You can’t shove your dick in a car’s mouth!The rant you’re linking makes about as much sense.
Is wayland the horse here. That would make sense. Xorg would be the car since it is objectively better and actually works. The only “benefits” of wayland would be similar to saying horses are better since they don’t contribute to global warming.
Dude - you’re either stupid enough to not realise the irony of what you’ve just said, or you’re trolling. For your sake, I kinda hope it’s the latter
I wouldn’t recommend shoving your dick in a horse’s mouth, though. But you do you.
Most of them are totally false… or completely dumb. if an application “doesn’t support wayland” it doesn’t mean that you can’t do the thing with something else, or the devs are working to support it…
The fact that such a thing exists shows the intentional flaw. Why should an application write different code for multiple compositors? It’s almost like they want devs to feel frustrated.
Wait til you hear about other OS, or even how most windows 95 apps doesn’t work in later OS
The problem with trying to ignore Wayland is that Xorg is abandonware.
It’s pretty bad for nvidia users. Want new features? Use wayland and deal with numerous annoying bugs. Don’t want to deal with those annoying bugs? Stay on x11 but miss all those new cool features.
nVidia users are in general SOL for FLOSS users in Linux and BSDland. Wayland devs distinctly not at fault here.
Is this like the Linux nerds’ version of the Crips and the Bloods?
It’s the Linux version of “old man yells at cloud”
Of all the social injustices in the world that you could devote time and resources into, you’ve decided the best one is “Some Linux systems use a different program to draw graphics”…
Like, just use a distro that uses XOrg if you still need it. Then feel betrayed 3 years down the line when they switch over to Wayland without you noticing.
Wayland is freedom restricting, in that way I’m actually fighting social injustices
fighting social injustices
There you have given yourself away as a troll.
You must be delusional. Wayland is not freedom restricting.
What do we learned today kids? Baseless/empty words = not an opinion. :^)
You again.
Stay on topic
