The perpetual advice to Democrats is that moving rightward will solve all their problems. But look where the party is at the moment: already embracing Republican affect and policies, yet still losing.
Supporting peace isn’t “Russian propaganda”, 78% of Ukranians want a negotiated end to the war. If you want to keep fighting Russia then send your own damn troops and quit forcing Ukranians to die over an inter-imperial pissing match that’s killed almost their entire fighting age male population.
Personally I hope Ukrainians do what they want - if a majority of them really do want a negotiated end to the war then they should do that.
I bet most of them probably want Russia to ultimately leave Ukraine though, and if they want help in achieving that, then I think we should help Ukraine.
Everybody agrees with supporting Ukraine including myself, the problem is that saying “maybe there should be a ceasefire and negotiated land swap” or “Ukraine should learn to live with Russia on their borders” triggers an extreme reaction in a lot of liberal centrists that just highlights the point in my original post 🤷♀️ Meanwhile Ukranians are being shoved into busses and forced to fight a losing war.
Not sure what the alternative is, Ukraine has run out of manpower and the ones that are left don’t want to keep fighting. We can dump all the money we have into the pit and it won’t solve the manpower issues, the only solution to that if Europe deports all the Ukranian refugees back to Ukraine to force them to fight or we send our own NATO troops in (WW3). And if this keeps going the way it’s been going millions are going to die and Putin will take all of Ukraine and not just parts of it that have been gone since 2014,
I definitely don’t want people to be forced to fight - it should be up to Ukrainians what they want to do. You have a point about Ukrainians wanting a negotiated end to the war. I found this:
Hopefully other countries can help Ukraine get as close as possible to a situation where they have Ukrainian land back, and where Ukrainians can determine their own future, instead of being pushed around by Russia.
Supporting peace isn’t “Russian propaganda”, 78% of Ukranians want a negotiated end to the war. If you want to keep fighting Russia then send your own damn troops and quit forcing Ukranians to die over an inter-imperial pissing match that’s killed almost their entire fighting age male population.
Personally I hope Ukrainians do what they want - if a majority of them really do want a negotiated end to the war then they should do that.
I bet most of them probably want Russia to ultimately leave Ukraine though, and if they want help in achieving that, then I think we should help Ukraine.
Everybody agrees with supporting Ukraine including myself, the problem is that saying “maybe there should be a ceasefire and negotiated land swap” or “Ukraine should learn to live with Russia on their borders” triggers an extreme reaction in a lot of liberal centrists that just highlights the point in my original post 🤷♀️ Meanwhile Ukranians are being shoved into busses and forced to fight a losing war.
Yes, saying Ukraine should surrender is going to trigger people.
Not sure what the alternative is, Ukraine has run out of manpower and the ones that are left don’t want to keep fighting. We can dump all the money we have into the pit and it won’t solve the manpower issues, the only solution to that if Europe deports all the Ukranian refugees back to Ukraine to force them to fight or we send our own NATO troops in (WW3). And if this keeps going the way it’s been going millions are going to die and Putin will take all of Ukraine and not just parts of it that have been gone since 2014,
The alternative is Russia surrenders and gives back all the land they stole.
I definitely don’t want people to be forced to fight - it should be up to Ukrainians what they want to do. You have a point about Ukrainians wanting a negotiated end to the war. I found this:
Hopefully other countries can help Ukraine get as close as possible to a situation where they have Ukrainian land back, and where Ukrainians can determine their own future, instead of being pushed around by Russia.
Oh, I’m sure the Ukrainians would love peace. too bad the Russians just want to wipe them out, so peace isn’t really an option for them