I’ve seen several references to some sort of rift between the users of these instances today. What’s happening?

  • asudox@lemmy.world
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    29 minutes ago

    Locking this thread. Too much pointless fighting happening and reports going out.

  • njm1314@lemmy.world
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    3 hours ago

    Just my own personal experience but by far most of the worst experiences I have on here come from .world users. Though to be fair bunch of them did move to piefed.

  • Bazell@lemmy.zip
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    4 hours ago

    Can be wrong about it, but a noticeable percentage of Lemmy.ml comunities and users are totally normal. The real issue is in a few admins and mods that flood the instance with delusional pro-Russian propaganda, love to USSR, Lenin and etc. And strictly removing anyone who is against it. Thus leaving on instance only people that support this propaganda and the ones who don’t protest against it. This creates a concentrated userbase with ideology and mindset unacceptable for a huge part of Lemmy.world userbase.

    So, in conclusion, battle between Lemmy.ml and Lemmy.world is mostly because of politics and ideologies.

    • cm0002@mander.xyz
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      2 hours ago

      Some highlights from the link:

      “If you don’t support Russia then you just don’t understand geopolitics” ~dessalines, main .ml admin, head dev https://lemmy.world/post/27352415

      “See! nobody died IN Tiananmen Square, just AROUND it, so it doesn’t count!!” ~ Davel, .ml admin https://lemmy.world/post/30673342

      “NK is actually good and anything counter to that is Western propaganda!” ~dessalines, main .ml admin, head dev https://lemmy.world/post/31595035

      Showing support for Ukraine on .ml is worthy of a site ban - dessalines, main .ml admin, head dev https://lemmy.world/post/32775563

      Nutomics continued transphobia https://lemmy.world/post/29222558

    • FunkyStuff@lemmy.ml
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      4 hours ago

      There’s another side to this. I’m originally from Hexbear and only started checking out what the experience of someone on an instance that isn’t massively defederated looks like. Lemmy.ml’s meme comms are full of tankie ragebait, but then there’s multiple .world communities that are the same, but they’re liberal ragebait. The difference is that .world’s ideology is hegemonic while .ml’s is fringe. But to someone who isn’t a liberal, looking at a Lemmy front page when .world is on that front page also has a lot of propagandistic content with little news or entertainment value; you probably just don’t realize it.

  • ObsidianNebula@sh.itjust.works
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    5 hours ago

    Obviously this is my opinion based off observations I’ve made, and not every user or sub in each instance falls under this generalization.

    Both instances have a lot of users, and they have ideological differences, so they inevitably butt heads. Depending on who you ask, ML mainly has socialists, communists, or tankies. World seems to be more centrist leaning to the left, but it seems to be accepting of a more varied range of political opinions. Considering a lot of Lemmy users came from Reddit, I think a comparison can be drawn. My opinion is that World users have an ideology similar to most of Reddit and seem more likely to have left Reddit because they took issue with specific Reddit admin policies. On the other hand, ML users would have had an ideology that was more fringe for Reddit, and while they may have had issues with Reddit admins as well, they seem more likely to have left Reddit because their views were not well accepted among Reddit’s general population.

    • Nebraska_Huskers@lemmy.world
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      3 hours ago

      Too add I think .ML and especially hexbear are the fringe like chapotraphouse was on reddit. Which I discovered through the dollop podcast and while I love that podcast chapotraphouse was a different beast

  • Meldrik@lemmy.wtf
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    6 hours ago

    My only issue with .ml that it’s pretty much lemmygrad.ml and hexbear.net in disguise. They are simply not being honest about who the instance is for.

    Don’t misunderstand. I don’t have anything against any of them, but they should really just be honest who lemmy.ml is for. Just like lemmygrad.ml and hexbear.net is.

    Lemmygrad.ml first rule is: No capitalist apologia / anti-communism.

    This is pretty much a hidden rule on Lemmy.ml.

    I remember a long time ago when Nutomic was hosting peertube.social. There, the rules was very honest and you knew what you signed up for in the instance. So why not just do that now as well?

    Hint: look at Dessalines modlog

      • FunkyStuff@lemmy.ml
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        4 hours ago

        The whole thing where you gotta copy a sentence from Principles of Communism to join makes it pretty clear, but yeah maybe it ought to be signposted more. It seems like lemmy.ml isn’t really the “default” lemmy instance anymore, so IMHO it would come at little cost to be transparent about its ideological tilt.

        Disclaimer: this is my alt account and I’m not really a .ml user, I don’t want to come across as an authority on this matter

        • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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          4 hours ago

          I agree that for users it’s pretty obvious because of that, but for those not on .ml it can seem a bit jarring. There’s a split identity between the de jure “FOSS/Privacy” focus .ml is supposed to be for, and the de facto “widely federated communist instance.”

  • CanadaPlus@lemmy.sdf.org
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    3 hours ago

    The Lemmy devs run .ml, and were/are part of a community revolving around the contrarian idea that anti-Western dictatorships are actually the good guys and all working together (somehow, despite visibly hating each other a lot of the time).

    The basic idea was always going to push some users to other instances, and then the adherents acting like conspiracy theorists often do pushed away a lot more. Some of the most aggressive instances are outright blocked by .world, IIRC.

    • FunkyStuff@lemmy.ml
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      4 hours ago

      anti-Western dictatorships are actually the good guys and all working together (somehow, despite visibly hating each other a lot of the time).

      I’m from Hexbear which is generally more extreme than .ml and this idea seems absurd to me. Who is saying that e.g. Russia is a close ally of Ansarallah?

  • humanamerican@lemmy.zip
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    9 hours ago

    .world is full of apologists and denialists for western imperialism

    .ml is full of tankies who think that ALL Americans are fascists (even those of us currently being terrorized by fascists).

    FSM help you if you ever try to inject sanity into one of their “debates”

    • MehBlah@lemmy.world
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      6 hours ago

      Almost no one is apologizing for what the west does. We just can’t see any difference between china and the west when it comes to imperialism. Tibet comes to mind and the fact they want to pick the next dali lama. Like its their imperialists right. They have done the same things that the west has done and done them in this century. Tankies just insist on their lies knowing what they say isn’t true.

        • I_Has_A_Hat@lemmy.world
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          1 hour ago

          As in supporting Ukraine or supporting Russia? Because those are the two sides and only 1 is responsible for the war and trying to take land by military force. Doesn’t get much more imperialist than that.

      • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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        6 hours ago

        The PRC isn’t imperialist, though. For example, BRI isn’t imperialist, because it results in mutual development. Where the west goes in and plunders and underdevelops the global south, countries in BRI see rising wages and industrialization, escaping the endless trap of imperialism. Does China benefit too? Absolutely. Is it imperialism? No. Here are some good articles:

        Instead, Imperialism is characterized by the following:

        -The presence of monopolies which play a decisive role in economic life.

        -The merging of bank capital with industrial capital into finance capital controlled by a financial oligarchy.

        -The export of capital as distinguished from the simple export of commodities.

        -The formation of international monopolist capitalist associations (cartels) and multinational corporations.

        -The domination and exploitation of other countries by militaristic imperialist powers, now through neocolonialism.

        -The territorial division of the whole world among the biggest capitalist powers.

        The global north, Europe and the US included, uses this export of capital to super-exploit foreign labor for super-profits. It also engages in unequal exchange, where the global south is prevented from moving up the value chain in production, allowing the global north to charge monopoly prices for commodities produced in the same labor hours.

        The point I am making isn’t simply about land conquering, but an ongoing process of shifting surplus value and resources from the imperialized to the core. Finance capital is the primary mechanism by which this functions.

        As for Tibet, Tibet was a feudal slave society backed by the CIA. The PLA liberated Tibet.

        Two exerpts from Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth:

        CW: descriptions of torture

        Drepung monastery was one of the biggest landowners in the world, with its 185 manors, 25,000 serfs, 300 great pastures, and 16,000 herdsmen. The wealth of the monasteries rested in the hands of small numbers of high-ranking lamas. Most ordinary monks lived modestly and had no direct access to great wealth. The Dalai Lama himself “lived richly in the 1000-room, 14-story Potala Palace.” [12]

        Secular leaders also did well. A notable example was the commander-in-chief of the Tibetan army, a member of the Dalai Lama’s lay Cabinet, who owned 4,000 square kilometers of land and 3,500 serfs. [13] Old Tibet has been misrepresented by some Western admirers as “a nation that required no police force because its people voluntarily observed the laws of karma.” [14] In fact it had a professional army, albeit a small one, that served mainly as a gendarmerie for the landlords to keep order, protect their property, and hunt down runaway serfs.

        Young Tibetan boys were regularly taken from their peasant families and brought into the monasteries to be trained as monks. Once there, they were bonded for life. Tashì-Tsering, a monk, reports that it was common for peasant children to be sexually mistreated in the monasteries. He himself was a victim of repeatedremoved, beginning at age nine. [15] The monastic estates also conscripted children for lifelong servitude as domestics, dance performers, and soldiers.

        In old Tibet there were small numbers of farmers who subsisted as a kind of free peasantry, and perhaps an additional 10,000 people who composed the “middle-class” families of merchants, shopkeepers, and small traders. Thousands of others were beggars. There also were slaves, usually domestic servants, who owned nothing. Their offspring were born into slavery. [16] The majority of the rural population were serfs. Treated little better than slaves, the serfs went without schooling or medical care. They were under a lifetime bond to work the lord’s land — or the monastery’s land — without pay, to repair the lord’s houses, transport his crops, and collect his firewood. They were also expected to provide carrying animals and transportation on demand. [17] Their masters told them what crops to grow and what animals to raise. They could not get married without the consent of their lord or lama. And they might easily be separated from their families should their owners lease them out to work in a distant location. [18]

        As in a free labor system and unlike slavery, the overlords had no responsibility for the serf’s maintenance and no direct interest in his or her survival as an expensive piece of property. The serfs had to support themselves. Yet as in a slave system, they were bound to their masters, guaranteeing a fixed and permanent workforce that could neither organize nor strike nor freely depart as might laborers in a market context. The overlords had the best of both worlds.

        One 22-year old woman, herself a runaway serf, reports: “Pretty serf girls were usually taken by the owner as house servants and used as he wished”; they “were just slaves without rights.” [19] Serfs needed permission to go anywhere. Landowners had legal authority to capture those who tried to flee. One 24-year old runaway welcomed the Chinese intervention as a “liberation.” He testified that under serfdom he was subjected to incessant toil, hunger, and cold. After his third failed escape, he was merciless beaten by the landlord’s men until blood poured from his nose and mouth. They then poured alcohol and caustic soda on his wounds to increase the pain, he claimed. [20]

        The serfs were taxed upon getting married, taxed for the birth of each child and for every death in the family. They were taxed for planting a tree in their yard and for keeping animals. They were taxed for religious festivals and for public dancing and drumming, for being sent to prison and upon being released. Those who could not find work were taxed for being unemployed, and if they traveled to another village in search of work, they paid a passage tax. When people could not pay, the monasteries lent them money at 20 to 50 percent interest. Some debts were handed down from father to son to grandson. Debtors who could not meet their obligations risked being cast into slavery. [21]

        The theocracy’s religious teachings buttressed its class order. The poor and afflicted were taught that they had brought their troubles upon themselves because of their wicked ways in previous lives. Hence they had to accept the misery of their present existence as a karmic atonement and in anticipation that their lot would improve in their next lifetime. The rich and powerful treated their good fortune as a reward for, and tangible evidence of, virtue in past and present lives.

        Selection two, shorter: (CW sexual violence and mutilation)

        The Tibetan serfs were something more than superstitious victims, blind to their own oppression. As we have seen, some ran away; others openly resisted, sometimes suffering dire consequences. In feudal Tibet, torture and mutilation — including eye gouging, the pulling out of tongues, hamstringing, and amputation — were favored punishments inflicted upon thieves, and runaway or resistant serfs. [22]

        Journeying through Tibet in the 1960s, Stuart and Roma Gelder interviewed a former serf, Tsereh Wang Tuei, who had stolen two sheep belonging to a monastery. For this he had both his eyes gouged out and his hand mutilated beyond use. He explains that he no longer is a Buddhist: “When a holy lama told them to blind me I thought there was no good in religion.” [23] Since it was against Buddhist teachings to take human life, some offenders were severely lashed and then “left to God” in the freezing night to die. “The parallels between Tibet and medieval Europe are striking,” concludes Tom Grunfeld in his book on Tibet. [24]

        In 1959, Anna Louise Strong visited an exhibition of torture equipment that had been used by the Tibetan overlords. There were handcuffs of all sizes, including small ones for children, and instruments for cutting off noses and ears, gouging out eyes, breaking off hands, and hamstringing legs. There were hot brands, whips, and special implements for disemboweling. The exhibition presented photographs and testimonies of victims who had been blinded or crippled or suffered amputations for thievery. There was the shepherd whose master owed him a reimbursement in yuan and wheat but refused to pay. So he took one of the master’s cows; for this he had his hands severed. Another herdsman, who opposed having his wife taken from him by his lord, had his hands broken off. There were pictures of Communist activists with noses and upper lips cut off, and a woman who wasremovedd and then had her nose sliced away. [25]

        -Dr. Michael Parenti

        Tibet is no longer under such a tortured regime, and has since seen skyrocketing quality of life metrics like life expectancy, industrialization, and more. The west uses the narrative of “oppression” as though the working classes of Tibet want to return to such brutal conditions, but in reality it’s the former aristocracy and the Dalai Lama that wish to return to their positions as a ruling class.

    • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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      9 hours ago

      We don’t think every single statesian is a fascist, but we do recognize that much of the statesian public is fascist along with the state. The US is a settler-colony, after all.

      • humanamerican@lemmy.zip
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        9 hours ago

        Obviously I’m generalizing and don’t think everyone on either instance is such a simplistic thinker. But I’ve been on the receiving end of plenty of insults from .ml accounts implying that ALL Americans are indistinguishable from Jefferson Davis.

          • humanamerican@lemmy.zip
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            9 hours ago

            Perhaps.

            Side note - you don’t deserve all this down voting. You’re engaging in good faith and making reasonable statements (more reasonable than my initial comment deserved, frankly). Its unfortunate that attempting to bring nuance to an online discussion usually results in hateful backlash. That’s not a .ml or .world problem. Just an Internet problem.

            • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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              8 hours ago

              Thanks, but no worries, I’m used to it. I have some severely dedicated haters. I just wish that they would actually try to respond to what they downvote, rather than silently downvote, as there’s no learning process created by that. Or when they run off to anti-communist drama communities (usually removing vital context), rather than directly addressing what I have to say.

                • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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                  6 hours ago

                  I don’t like the line of logic that states “getting hate = correct,” but I do think people should have who their haters are be factored in. Many people are rightly hated, like Netanyahu, but largely by entirely reasonable people. I can’t say my haters are particularly reasonable.

                  But thanks for the compliment!

      • humanamerican@lemmy.zip
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        8 hours ago

        Also, I respect your insistence on using a term other than American to describe people from the US.

        Growing up in the US, calling ourselves American is a hard habit to break, but I recognize how dismissive and insulting it is to the rest of the people living in North and South America.

        • FunkyStuff@lemmy.ml
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          3 hours ago

          It’s interesting, in Puerto Rico I’ve often heard the term “North Americans” used to refer to inhabitants of the 50 states, even though North America is a region that includes other countries and even PR itself.

        • bitcrafter@programming.dev
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          8 hours ago

          Also, I respect your insistence on using a term other than American to describe people from the US.

          Because no one else belongs to a state and so calling ourselves “statesians” is therefore better?

        • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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          8 hours ago

          Yep, thanks! I’m a Statesian myself, and see settler-colonialism as the primary contradiction domestically. Calling myself an “American” is, as you said, dismissive and insulting to the rest of the Americas, most of which aren’t settler-colonies.

          • Auli@lemmy.ca
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            8 hours ago

            All of America’s are settler colonies. Or are they not to you because they are not White.

            • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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              8 hours ago

              Much of latin and south America are predominantly indigenous, whereas the USA and Canada in particular wiped out the vast majority of the indigenous populations. Mexicans, for example, are largely a mix of Spanish and indigenous, ie mestizo, with around 20% identifying as indigenous. This is in stark contrast to the US and Canada.

              • FunkyStuff@lemmy.ml
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                3 hours ago

                Just my own perspective, but I don’t think it’s really accurate to say that latinos of mixed descent always stop being settlers. Some are indigenous as you say, but I think most of us still count as settlers. We definitely aren’t indigenous (except in the context of the colonial relationship between our countries and the imperial core) in the strict political sense, and we live in (predominantly) unceded territory. I don’t know if there’s a single country in LatAm that isn’t a settler colony as a result of these facts, I’d probably hazard to say no but there’s a few I’m pretty ignorant about.

                • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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                  3 hours ago

                  It’s definitely a contested subject, and I have the “benefit” of falling squarely into undisputed settler territory so there’s no ambiguity. This is just the perspective I have heard so far on the subject, I know mestizo aren’t indigenous directly but it’s not the same as the sheer obliteration of indigenous populations at mass scale as in Canada and the US. I still support indigenous movements throughout south and latin America, of course, as I do in the US/Canada.

              • humanamerican@lemmy.zip
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                7 hours ago

                I’d also like to add that, as far as I know, USA (and to a lesser extent Canada) are the only two states in the Americas that are still actively colonizing other places, including other parts of the Americas.

  • Randomgal@lemmy.ca
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    4 hours ago

    Both sides use it as testing grounds for bots and propaganda before taking them to real social media.

  • Liketearsinrain@lemmy.ml
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    6 hours ago

    This will go well. But some people want lemmy to be like reddit, shitty politics and censorship inclusive.

  • Sharkticon@lemmy.zip
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    7 hours ago

    .world is basically a bunch of neoliberals who think anything to the left of Reagan are tankies.

  • fyrilsol@kbin.melroy.org
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    6 hours ago

    I don’t know but this is not the way to look good if people are trying to leave Reddit’s shit.

    They’re going to see this stupid sissy slap-fight and go “aw, fuck dude, I left Reddit for this?” and then turn away.

    Good job, dumbasses.

  • MehBlah@lemmy.world
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    6 hours ago

    Some of see the world as it is and ML can’t see how full of it they are.

    Edit: I feel only satisfaction and validation when I get downvoted for setting the tankies straight.

  • enterpries@sh.itjust.works
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    6 hours ago

    You guys ever notice how the .ml crowd comes out in droves to defend each other?

    They probably have a discord where they coordinate actions so that none of them have to defend their cult alone.

    It’s pretty sad.