Is it real antisemitism or just not supporting Israel?
About when they start going on about “Zionists” Is where I draw the line and where it typically takes a turn.
As a Jewish person, I find it healthy to criticize the Israeli government. Most young Israelis do. Their government has been steamrolled by a wannabe dictator that is corrupt as hell and his team of racist, backwards conservative orthodox buddies.
They were just protesting in the streets weeks ago and now we’re expected to turn around and support the government? Nah. This doesn’t change anything.
The problem is a lot of people don’t differentiate between the israeli government and the israeli people as a whole - i’ve seen some straight up ‘they had it coming’ style bullshit that is verrry careful to place Good Jews and Bad Jews (the festival goers) to try and get a pass on antisemitsm and maaaan it is transparent as fuck.
But that’s how politics work nowadays. You need to assume that every group is homogenous and when someone from that group points out that it isn’t, you call them a hypocrite.
No child is to blame about any of this. And when I think about this (i’m sorry) very stupid conflict, all I can think is people killing children because of land. FUCKING DIRT. Not a specific people, just people, humans, killing children becuase a piece o land, that to be fair it fits everyone! That is of a stupidity that I can not fathom
Yes, it’s really just about how the land is called and who makes the rules. There are Israelis living in Palestine and Palestinians are citizens of Israel already.
What are you talking about? I know Jewish people that openly condemn the behavior of their gov. A person is good or bad depending on their actions - you cannot lump everyone together based on whatever characteristics you want and after that starting a genocide campaign.
The festival goes were just normal people like you and me that were trying to live and enjoy life. Same with the innocent people that are dying in Gaza.
I’m talking about commentary i’ve seen. People very careful to say ‘i’m not an antisemite buuuuuuut’
Yeah. Sure.
Yeah no. These two should be disconnected.
dude if you go “I’m not an antisemite but those festival goers absolutely had it coming” then you are at the very least an utter cunt.
You cannot separate Zionism from the formation of the state of Israel and how the history of the conflict has been shaped since.
In order to obtain a more holistic perspective of the conflict people need to know about Zionism, it’s history, and how it currently affects Israeli leadership.
There are still people alive on both sides that lived through Zionist conflicts with the British Mandate and the Nakba.
People should really stop conflating anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism. Unfortunately it’s very common and even part of the official classifications used by some countries. To me it seems obvious that this is another attempt to cut off any criticism of the state of Israel by labeling critics as anti-Semitic. Here’s an interesting read about how flawed that logic is:
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2019/mar/07/debunking-myth-that-anti-zionism-is-antisemitic
I must admit, it’s quite refreshing to hear a critical take on the Israeli government from a Jewish person. I don’t know if it’s due to the news sources and forums I typically frequent (e.g. BBC, Guardian, etc), but I feel like it’s quite rare to hear an opinion from someone who actually lives there or who practices the religion.
It’s also quite reassuring (as a fairly ignorant outside observer who is only beginning to learn the tiniest bit about the complex and bloody history of this region) to hear that not every Jewish person or every Israeli likes the way that the state is developing.
Edit: I made some language changes because upon re-reading the parent comment I realised that the poster didn’t actually say whether they lived in Israel or not and I had made a faulty assumption.
Is it real antisemitism or just not supporting Israel?
Nothing lemmy.world loves more than bagging on the *.ml instance, so I’m going to take a wild guess at the latter. If it was self-referential “Me looking at all the antisemitism on lemmy.world” it never would have received this much positive attention.
Could you elaborate on the “zionist” thing? I haven’t really followed the Israel situation (I tried, but it’s just so complicated). What I heard, is that “zionist” is used when talking about the Israel activity in “taking” territory from the surrounding area, is that correct or did I just misunderstand? If I’m not wrong, then what happens when people start going on about it?
The idea that discussing Zionism is a sign of an anti-semite is a shit take. The Zionist movement worked very hard to establish a colony in the middle east, in an area where they knew there were already natives and those natives were hostile to being colonized. It’s impossible to truly study the founding of Israel without learning about the Zionist movement.
This isn’t about religion, or even very much about race. It’s about the powerful asserting their will over the powerless. To some extent you could argue that the Zionists were used by the British to screw over the Arabs, but that doesn’t make the Zionists innocent.
Equating discussions of Zionism with anti-Semitism is part of the Israeli propaganda playbook for dismissing all criticism of Israel’s founding.
The idea that discussing Zionism is a sign of an anti-semite is a shit take.
There is some history to back this up, especially among older folks. I know I’ve heard a few irl antisemitic tirades start off with a testing of the waters by complaining about Zionists
Although for real, Jewish people are cool and great, but fuck Zionists.
Many of the Comments I had to read on Lemmy.ml were like „Israelian Civilians deserved that Terror attack“ so make of that what you like.
I’m one of the Israelis who frequently attended the anti-government protest.
I expect you not to support the Israeli government, but to support the Israeli people’s right to defend ourselves from terrorists.
Regardless of whether Israel has a right wing or left wing government, we will not allow thousands of us to be massacred.
We won’t stand by and twiddling our thumbs waiting for the next Hamas attack to kill more of us without responding with our full force.
None of this contradicts the fight to end the occupation. You can be anti-Hamas and anti-occupation at the same time.
Nuance is possible!
Then how about your government stop killing and abusing Palestinians. It’s almost as if decades of apartheid oppression, murder, and human rights abuses have consequences
They specifically stated that they where attending anti-governmsnt protests. 🙄
Awh that’s great! They’ve attended anti government protests. I guess we can ignore the call for a heavy handed ruthless response in retaliation in that same comment or the implicit support of their government’s ongoing role in the bombing and murder of civilians. Also, nowhere did I see them specifically decrying their government over the Gaza response, only in response to “corruption”
I would say isreal has a right to defend itself, but not if they keep stealing land and oppressing the people who attack them.
If you want to defend yourself, first, you have to stop attacking the people who you claim to be defending against.
Hamnas is human garbage, but one can not separate the creation of Israel from the ghettoizing of the Palestinian people.
Nobody deserves terrorist attacks, but this didn’t come out of the blue.
Isreal needs to own up to it’s complicity in the violence before they try to claim to be the sole victims of it.
I also disagree with many things the Israeli government does. But when people ignore the complete history of Israel and exclusively ventilate the pro-Palestinian propaganda, a red line is crossed for me.
The complete history of Israel forcing Palestinians into ghettos and systematically slaughtering them? The fact that they told civilians to flee to the south and then bombed the very area they claimed would be safe? The fact that they claim the right to self determination but refuse to allow the Palestinians the same right? The fact that netanyahu funded Hamas to destabilize the region so that he’d have pretense to carry out his war crimes?
I don’t condone the attacks by Hamas, but to pretend that Israel isn’t trying to carry out a genocide is crossing a red line for me.
This whole conflict has just always felt like a massive grey area as an outsider. Both sides have done horrible things over the years, with the retaliation often being even worse. Most governments (including mine) are actually supporting both sides, for example through humanitarian aid. That’s just kind of weird when you think about it, in a way they’re enabling both sides to keep going. And I just don’t know if there’s any way out of this besides one side completely destroying the other. Peace talks have been had so many times and it just doesn’t lead anywhere. It just feels inevitable.
There is no argument for “both sides bad” when one side is currently right now this instant blowing up hospitals, schools, and children. One side is objectively worse and it’s the side hiding behind the skirts of “antisemitism” as they carry out an Arabic genocide
I disagree.
Both sides are bad, no matter who is currently the aggressor.
Now because there is aggression, the aggressor has an obligation to stop it, and we have an obligation to force a stop in the conflict as well. But that doesn’t make the other party less Bad in this. Both sides killed a lot of innocent people, both have inhumane ulterior motives and both are supporting further escalation. But ofc if there’s only one party doing the fighting, then that’s the party that acutely needs to be stopped.
This distinction is very important to me, because you are not suddenly the good guy because you stopped killing civilians. You are just not actively doing war crimes which means we don’t have to intervene because of you anymore, which is at least one less reason. But you are not holy because “this year it was only 300 war crimes”.
“Both have inhuman ulterior motives”
Palestine wants to be free
Israel wants to genocide Palestine and live in their homes
Yes I can see how wanting liberty and self governance is exactly the same as wanting more land for your historically landless people regardless of how many natives you have to kill. Completely balanced
The attacks weren’t perpetrated by a free Palestinian people or some recognized advocacy group, but by an extremist wing of the Muslim Brotherhood that has been pushed by Israel for decades.
So forcing an entire people’s into ghettos and taking their land, while putting them under blockade and only reluctantly letting I’m small amounts of aid and food, all while bombing them weekly is actually good, because sometimes they fight back, making them the aggressor?
What about the people ignoring complete history of the Palestinian people and blindly supporting Isreal?
They’re also doing more harm than good. This is an immensley complicated situation that requires nuance.
Dare I say all this could have been avoided if they weren’t mistreated for nearly 70 years?
What about people ignoring the possibility of a comet hitting the earth?
I don’t see how European guilt for allowing a genocide excuses another.
Israelis and people of Jewish faith are fine and nice people. Netanyahu’s government is a monster with genocidal ideas. Some people go along with these terrible ideas.
Palestinians and people of Muslim faith are fine and nice people. Hamas leadership are monsters with genocidal ideas. Some people go along with these terrible ideas.
This is probably the only time I will agree with the “both sides” take on this. My view on this is that it doesn’t mean I agree with killing innocents though. People at the top doing terrible things is no reason to condemn a whole people who very likely had little say in the matter.
If there’s one issue, ever, that you should be at least a little “both sides” on, it’s this one.
There’s no way you can honestly argue only one side of this.
You can if you are racist
Israelis and people of Jewish faith are fine and nice people.
The current state of the Israeli government and the intense fascist impulse driving its leaders to genocide would suggest “the average (enfranchised) Israeli” is maybe not as fine or as nice as we’d like to believe.
Engaging with any kind of online community of Israelis feels like I’m stepping into a Der Sturmer article, what with all the intense hate and vitriol aimed at virtually any non-Israeli.
Hamas leadership are monsters
Who, specifically, in Hamas leadership is a monster? Name some names. Is it the head of UNWRA? The chief physician at the Al-Shifa Hospital? The press editor at Al Jaazera magazine? The folks working at the World Central Kitchen?
Because I’ve heard all of these organizations are hosting Hamas leadership. I’ve yet to hear anything else about them that explains why they deserved to die, other than that they’re “Hamas Leadership” and “Hamas Leadership are monsters”.
People in Hamas leadership positions like Ghazi Hamad from this article, who can talk a big talk from the safety of outside Palestine and ignore their people’s suffering.
I don’t give a rats’ ass about Israel’s lies and deception calling everyone and anyone that disagrees with their genocidal tactics as a Hamas sympathizer. Yeah and I’m of the stance that Israeli has had no business being in there for months and are actively commiting genocide, killing a massive excess of civilians and disrupting humanitarian aid.
But make no mistake, just like there are hardcore religious evangelicals in the US there are emboldened religious warmongerers in Palestine who are equally blind to Palestinian suffering for a higher cause as the Israeli extremist government is.
People in Hamas leadership positions like Ghazi Hamad
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghazi_Hamad#Dialogue_with_G._Baskin_(Israel)
It sounds like Hamad has been instrumental in back channeling communications with the Israeli government. Also looks like he wasn’t in Gaza during the Al Aqsa Flood. Is he ignoring his neighbors’ suffering by reestablishing dialogue with his Israeli colleague and trying to end the hostilities? Or was he supposed to fling himself onto the bayonets at the Israel-Lebanon border after Gaza was sealed off by the Israelis?
I don’t give a rats’ ass about Israel’s lies and deception
You’re citing an article from the NYPost, so you clearly don’t mind at least a little bit of their lies and deception. You’ve picked out a guy who appears to be some kind of underground media publisher, amateur medic, and glorified border guard as a party leader and a “monster”.
Is there anything you’re citing more monstrous than his hatred of Israel?
But make no mistake, just like there are hardcore religious evangelicals in the US there are emboldened religious warmongerers in Palestine
To my knowledge, hardcore religious evangelicals in the US aren’t traditionally kettled in an open air prison and subject to targeted assassinations on the whims of New Atheist military commanders. I’m willing to give a guy like David Koresh a bit of leeway in his hatred of the American government, if for no other reason than the FBI surrounded his house and killed a dozen of his friends. I have significantly less sympathy for your Jerry Falwell Jrs and your James Dobsons.
I’ve got a family friend who lost 23 members of her immediate family in the course of a weekend, when the Israeli government began its carpet bombing of Gaza City. If she went into a full blown Mein Kempf rant after that, I could hardly blame her. But to claim she’s somehow a warmonger for hating the people who obliterated half her family tree?
Did we hold Americans to that standard after 9/11?
You wanted names of someone spouting violent rhetoric on the Palestinian side, I gave you one. Has nothing to do with UNWRA, World Kitchen, MSF or journalists. All reasons and justification are set aside.
Many did protest the disproportionate response to 9/11, and Americans still face many repercussions today in the privacy of their daily lives.
I agree with you on what you’re saying. In my eyes the Israeli military’s actions are very, very far from justifiable at this point in time. I’ll remind you that it has been 8 months from when I wrote the original comment in October, before the WCK event in April, UNRWA defunding in January and several bombings of refugee camps between November and May. I don’t see a reason to continue to have an argument over this.
You wanted names of someone spouting violent rhetoric
I did not ask for that at all. You substituted him in because he’s the worst person you could find with a Google search.
I did not ask for that at all.
Who, specifically, in Hamas leadership is a monster? Name some names.
I apologize if I interpreted this question from you incorrectly. I’d tried to respond in good faith to you in this months old thread, but after 3 argumentative replies my patience has run thin. Have a good day.
Criticizing. Israel. Is. Not. Anti-semitism.
Is criticizing Saudi Arabia “Islamophobia”?
I agree…It’s a tense situation but words have meaning. Anti-Netanyahu does not mean Antisemitism.
Putin’s propaganda wants russians to belive that criticizing Putin is rusophobia. This post looks exactly like Putin’s propaganda.
Apparently criticising Ukraine is unacceptable though
Oh, do you talk a lot about their corruption scandals?
I know nothing about anything bad Ukraine has done, I don’t follow the war as much as I used to. I just see a lot of downvotes on anything critical of Ukraine
Probably because all criticism seems to come from people with a clear and contemptible agenda, even when it’s true, and it often isn’t.
There’s plenty of room for critical support but the critics mostly just seem to be cheering for the invasion. Probably because all the fair criticism revolves around the fact that war is hell.
I’m a Jew and pretty sensitive to antisemitism, even dogwhistles. I admit I don’t go to lemmy.ml very often, but from what I’ve seen from lemmy.ml posters posting on lemmy.world, there’s been no antisemitism at all. In fact, I have not seen any antisemitism from anyone here that I can recall, which is pretty amazing in and of itself.
Opposition to Israel’s genocidal regime is not antisemitism.
Yeah. I am really sick of seeing the argument that any condemnation of the government of Israel is anti-Semitic. It has nothing to do with them being Jewish and everything to do with how they have handled that conflict over the years.
Out of the loop, what do dogwhistles mean regarding antisemitism?
Saying things that aren’t explicitly antisemitic but are basically hidden code for antisemitism. Such as “Globalists.”
Why is that called a dog whistle?
If this had been Reddit, I’d have bought credits to award you a gold star.
Hold on a second…
Given the current state of the website and its admins, that might constitute a bigger act of antisemitism than anything lemmy.ml mods are up to.
Go actually look at the .ml worldnews community. There is full mask off “death to Israel” shit all over the place.
“Death to Israel” is also not antisemitic. Jews are not Israelis and Israelis are not Jews. I am not an Israeli. I have no ties or allegiances to Israel, nor do I want them. I think “death to Israel” is an extremist viewpoint, but not an antisemitic one.
Depends on who’s saying it, but not necessarily an anti-semitic phrase, sure.
When shouted by some dude at a campus protest in a nation two thousand miles away, probably not.
However, when Hamas or the Houthis say it, it definitely is.
Is it anti-Semitic when a Semite calls for the killing of a different group of Semites?
1: Kind of like saying there can’t be white on white racism.
2: Only nerds know that Palestinians and Arabs in general are also Semitic.
It does rather point out how stupid all this irredentism is though. These are ultimately all descendants of the same peoples, killing each other over the same God.
Anti Zionism ≠ Anti Semitism.
Some people wants every body human rights to be respected, and dennounce crimes against humanity that Israel and Hamas commits, one being an alleged country and the other a terrorist organization.
The right for self determination of Palestinians (and to live) is not being respected by Israel, so, with confidence I will say Free Palestine!
What’s funny is that Palestinians are literally Semitic
Anti Zionism ≠ Anti Semitism
In the West, maybe. For Hamas specifically…am I seriously the only one who read their charter? They cite the most notorious antisemitic hoax of all time with a straight face and their stated goal is to wipe out Israel and kill Jews.
Very few people are arguing for Hamas. Mostly for the civilians of Palestine. And even Hamas claims it’s changed somewhat since the original charter.
They launched an entire military operation with the express purpose of murdering civilians at a music festival.
And you’re saying that’s the changed version?
“Yeah but this terrorist organization…” Really dog?
With majority support in Gaza.
Have you ever lived under a terrorist regime? When did Palestinians last vote and what is/where the demographics of the population vs eligible voters? What kind of democracy do they have, one like North Korea or maybe they have a government like the US? What’s the name of the president of Palestine? How many generals do they have? Do children deserve to be murdered because of how their parents voted?
So tell me what „Anti-Zionism“ means exactly in your opinion.
Anti-Zionism Opposition to Jewish ethnonationalism
Anti-Zionism is opposition to Zionism. Although anti-Zionism is a heterogeneous phenomenon, all its proponents agree that the creation of the modern State of Israel, and the movement to create a sovereign Jewish state in the region of Palestine – the biblical Land of Israel – was flawed or unjust in some way.
- wikipedia
Zionism became a thing when antisemitism was really bad.
Israel became a thing when antisemitism went over itself and even casual antisemites looked in horror at what Nazis had done.
The Palestinian problem today is nested within centuries of the problem of antisemitism, coiling around and biting itself in the tail.
Antisemitism ≠ antizionism, lemmy.ml (speaking from experience) has waaaaay harsher and stricter moderation that something like ee or world, they straight up hard-remove words from comments, an antisemite would be banned on sight.
Unless they painted their antisemitism in a thin veneer of
fetishizingsupporting PalestiniansMost Palestinians are semites as well.
Antisemitism is specifically discrimination against jews, not against all semitic peoples…
Israel is a state
Judaism is a religionIf one disagrees or opposes one, they don’t oppose the other. I know that Israel has managed to spin the narrative that Israel and Judaism are the same and everyone opposing the state is basically the same kind of hateful asshole Adolf was, but that’s just not true. We here in Germany have struggled a long time with that for obvious reasons. You couldn’t call out Israel for doing wrong shit without being called a Nazi. In that past that is. What you’ve seen isn’t “Antisemitism”. It’s opposition to some of the bullshit Israel is pulling that is the very same kind of bullshit Jews have been subjected to in the past. Or tell me: What’s the difference between a Ghetto in 1700s Germany and the Gaza Strip? Correct, the 1700s Ghetto had less travel restrictions.
There is a great push in Israel to be proud of the history of unjust oppression and prosecution Jews have suffered for centuries and how awful being a victim of that was. There is this sense that together, as a nation, they finally have the means to safeguard themselves against shit like that. Yet, that very same nation pulls a swift 180 when it comes to palestinians. Pushing them back into Ghettos, depriving them of any form of economical way out, depriving them of means to get their own electricity, their own water. Paying them pittances for their jobs, restricting travel for them whenever possible. Now, as soon as those people act hostile (go figure), the “state of the oppressed” Israel responds with the military. “A little bombardment will keep them in check, right? How dare they hate us?!”
If the message all the Shoa museums, all the graveyards for the people killed in atrocities was really understood, neither the “West Bank” nor the “Gaza Strip” could exist without Israelites acting up against them.
Rant over.
So you say that you oppose Israel’s existence itself - the existence as a state, but do not hate Jews in particular, right?
Do you support the existence of an apartheid state? Yes or no answer only.
Try your derailing somewhere else.
Username checks out.
I know you would love it @rah 😘
Where did the poster say that?
We all know that I didn’t. But they need that for some sort of strawman argument, methinks.
Lemmy.world go 30 minutes without making things up about other instances challenge.
Difficulty: impossible.
Whiniest instance by far. I get the hate for hexbear and grad, but ml is normal
Why is everyone in the comments section oversimplifying this complex issue? Great reminder that that’s what politics is now, blaming one side and naming the other side pure.
What is your definition of anti-Semitism?
People who like to put the milk in with the teabag before the hot water
