- cross-posted to:
- technology@beehaw.org
- technology@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- technology@beehaw.org
- technology@lemmy.world
cross-posted from: https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/17618684
Forced arbitration means any legal disputes you may have with Discord must be resolved through a single third party mediator, who 99% of the time is chosen by, and will rule in favor of, the corporation/Discord. This effectively removes all your legal rights as a consumer, because arbitration decisions are legally binding and non-appealable.
The new ToS goes into effect April 15th, 2024.
YOU CAN OPT OUT OF ARBITRATION. You must email arbitration-opt-out@discord.com BEFORE MAY 15TH (30 days after ToS effective date) with your username stating that you wish to opt out of the arbitration clause. Once May 15th passes you are bound to arbitration with Discord forever.
Opt-out before it’s too late.
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Inb4 people who opt out start finding themselves getting randomly banned for vague, obscure TOS reasons.
oh good lord i hope not.
I’ll update if it happens.
Please stop enshitifying discord
Too late mate is a shit long ago
Its always been shit
It seems largely fallen out of favour but I’m genuinely wondering how Teamspeak is still going and hasn’t succumbed to enshittification
We need a Federated FOSS Discord alternative built to work with the activity pub protocol.
revolt.chat?
…Matrix…?
Honestly, matrix is incredibly user unfriendly. It needs to stop being held up as an option for these sort of things.
Even my 60 year old mother who needs tech support for her iPhone every other month had no problems setting up a matrix account when I asked her to use it instead of sms.
What are your issues Matrix?
How is it user unfriendly? The default client Element looks exactly if not better than discord and there’s servers where you don’t even need to verify your mail to register.
We don’t need a completely decentralized system. Matrix is not efficient, its bloated and overly complicated compared to what you could have. A federated system with minimal overhead would be nice. This is the reason I went with XMPP over matrix for self hosting a discord alternative. I just wish we had something like XMPP that interacted with activitypub.
Matrix isn’t decentralized, it is federated just like lemmy or mastodon, except it is its own protocol.
xmpp is still stuck in the early 2000 and even the ecosystem of apps around it are stuck in the 2000.
How is it not decentralized?
Unfortunately, ActivityPub isn’t really designed to scale in a way that a Discord alternative would require. The intended behavior for federation isn’t clear either. Matrix is already a mature federated chat server with dozens of clients including an official one. Building a Discord clone client for it would be a lot easier than rolling a whole new custom server.
For anyone who didn’t click into the original post and whose client didn’t include its text, here are the instructions for opting out:
Opt-out. You can decline this agreement to arbitrate by emailing an opt-out notice to arbitration-opt-out@discord.com within 30 days of April 15, 2024 or when you first register your Discord account, whichever is later; otherwise, you shall be bound to arbitrate disputes in accordance with the terms of these paragraphs. If you opt out of these arbitration provisions, Discord also will not be bound by them.
Note that the forced arbitration clause applies only to Discord users in the US. The class action waiver appears to apply regardless.
This is also not a new addition to their TOS, but it does appear to require opting out again even if you already did, and to grant an additional opt out opportunity if you didn’t.
They also waive rights for class action lawsuits, one should also say to not agree with that.
Fun, so you cant sue over them selling your data to ai
Um this is not going to hold up in the Ontario Consumer Protection Tribunal due to this: Ontario’s Consumer Protection Act, 2002 (“Consumer Protection Act”) prohibits mandatory arbitration clauses and class action waivers in consumer agreements.
The fact that they’re even trying thus needs to trigger an exodus.friends don’t let friends use discord.
Just give me a snippet to file a consumer protection application. It’ll get struct down
A what protection… That’s not a real thing, and if you rely on abusive daddy and his magic hammer to save you, you’re going to be so fucked.
Just stop using it. Get your friends to stop using it. Ditch this garbage. This isnt even the biggest reason to do that anyway.
The Supreme Court of Canada ruled that these types of forced arbitration violates my province’s Consumer Protection Act
Even simpler: don’t do Discord.
I was invited to some Discord chatroom once: when I hit the website, the list of blocked scripts in uBlock Origin was longer than my arm. That was all I needed to close the tab immediately. I don’t need to run 500 trackers from sketchy advertisement companies to join a glorified IRC chatroom with enough emojis and color to put an epilepsy sufferer in danger.
Imo the future is federated and self-hosted. Maybe not for everyone, but for me.
I’m not really sure what you did, but it certainly wasn’t just opening discord.
I just tried it and there isn’t a single third party script in the browser version according to Ublock and noscript, there are only three scripts activ in total, all from different Discord subdomains. Maybe a few more if there are media links in the chat.
If you look through the blocked connection requests they are also all made from the same source, namely the Discord science API, their internal data collector.
The Discord homepage has a Google integration and a few embedded YouTube videos, but it’s hard to find a website that doesn’t have some form of Google scripts.
Heck I don’t even want to defend Discord here, but ia call bullshit on your story.
Try uBlock Origin in hard mode. You’ll see how much garbage needs blocking that you don’t see in easy or medium mode.
Are you scared of everything you don’t understand?
“Hardmode” is just a fancy name for blocking all 3rd party scripts, which there aren’t even any to block here in the first place. What does happen is that two of the three Discord domains get flagged and blocked:
One is Discord.gg which is the Websocket to get and sent events, so it’s needed for functionality.
The other is Discordapp.net which is pretty much their media server.
If you block all 3rd party scripts, frames and connections, then yes, your number of blocked items will shoot up into the hundreds. But if you knew what you are doing and just took a look at what was actually blocked, you would realise that it all was just requests for media and profile pictures. Even with fully enabled hardmode, there wasn’t a single request from a 3rd party advertiser or data broker, not even Google.
Your arrogance for using hardmode is completely unfounded if you don’t even know what it really is blocking. All you are doing is looking at a number go up and are patting yourself on the back for it.
Thank you for your service.
There’s an element of privacy fatalists around here who require no evidence for their claims and will doggedly ignore any evidence to the contrary. While I think zero-trust is a proper approach to security problems, propagandizing the technical aspect with hearsay and falsehood is useless.
Many tolerate it thinking we share a common enemy, but they’re wrong. Ignorance is the enemy, and tolerating it is why the community of privacy advocates is being swallowed by the much much larger community of online conspiracy brokers. Anyway, thank you for not tolerating it and doing your part.
Even with fully enabled hardmode, there wasn’t a single request from a 3rd party advertiser or data broker, not even Google.
Assume a company wants to maximize profits without losing privacy-minded users. I assume there is somewhat of an increase in cost, complexity, and latency if that company decides to collect data themselves and subsequently sell it to a data broker? Is there any actual privacy benefit? / Is there anything Google can only glean if their code is embedded into a site and they cannot simply collect after the fact? (Maybe routing time given their global presence or something kinda small…)
If there is any benefit to it depends on how discord sells your data.
The baseline assumption is that they just collect and sell everything as is, considering how shitty their privacy policy is and the general track record of corps following gdpr guidelins. With that barely anything changes.
If we belive the claims in their policies, then things get a lot better. Only aggregated and anonymized information is shared for marketing. Apart from that only their direct partners get more personalised information. Sadly, Google will probably get a lot of it since they are one of Discords cloud service providers but it should still be less then them collecting it themselves.
Now if we also assume they are following all GDPR laws, than even Google should only get very restricted information about you needed for their services.
What they really do with your data is anyones guess. I assume its somewhere between 1 and 2, but there is no proof I know of. The only benefit I really see is that it’s a lot easier to just block the one Discord API instead of 500 individual brokers.
It’s tough. Most gamers use it. I only recently was told about alternate clients but I don’t know which yet.
I was happy with Mumble and forums, but I completely get why it feels outdated to others.
Can I ask how this is going to affect other countries outside the US? I do not want to accept something that I do not really know how to handle because it doesn’t really apply to my country.
These are the main parts that mention locations for it, I’m no lawyer but it looks like this only applies to people in the US, with lighter restrictions for California residents, someone please correct me if I’m wrong
If you are a consumer residing in the European Union, this clause and these terms in general do not affect any mandatory consumer rights you may have under your local law, and all disputes arising in connection with the services and/or these terms shall be submitted to the exclusive jurisdiction of the court of Amsterdam, the Netherlands or, if you are a consumer, to a court closer to your domicile if in an EU Member State.
The Federal Arbitration Act, federal arbitration law, and California law will apply to these terms and any disputes related to these terms or our services, regardless of conflict of laws rules. Any dispute that is not subject to arbitration will be resolved exclusively in the state or federal courts in San Francisco County, California, and you and Discord both consent to venue and personal jurisdiction in these courts.
IF YOU’RE A U.S. RESIDENT, YOU ALSO AGREE TO THE FOLLOWING MANDATORY ARBITRATION PROVISIONS. PLEASE READ THIS SECTION CAREFULLY – IT MAY SIGNIFICANTLY AFFECT YOUR LEGAL RIGHTS, INCLUDING YOUR RIGHT TO FILE A LAWSUIT IN COURT: (rest of the document)
Just a reminder for me to check this thread later.
Thankfully no TOS is legally binding here since pressing agree doesn’t count as signing a document.
Do you have anything to prove that? I’m serious, This feels like it shouldn’t be binding but I can find no legal reasons or information that it wouldn’t be, and I would really like to find that.
Seems ludicrous that a company can be like “OK STARTING IN 30 DAYS NO SUING US ALLOWED. IF YOU DON’T SPECIFICALLY TELL US WITHIN THOSE 30 DAYS THAT YOU MIGHT SOMEDAY NEED TO SUE US THEN YOU NEVER CAN FOREVER.” But then a lot of stuff here is ludicrous.
It depends on where you live. In Germany, forced arbitration in general TOS is invalid and has to be separately negotiated and agreed to. In general, what you can put into your TOS is pretty restricted, anything you put in there that a consumer wouldn’t reasonably expect is not gonna be legally binding.
That is the case for all of Europe and most of the rest of the world. That’s why that ToS change is only for US customers.
My country only considers electronic signatures made by our national ID cryptographic signature system to be legally binding in contracts. A ToS without that and just an agree button can only be used to set rules within that platform here. In a court a ToS is basically meaningless.
Fun fact: Our online voting system works on the same principle.
Ah ok I misunderstood your comment.
I had just read the thing and had that it only applied to US fresh in my head. Then I read your comment and assumed “here” referred to US also. My bad.
Is anyone still using discord? 🫠
It’s hard NOT to use it when every damn project uses it for announcements and discussions.
Be me.
Playing game. Custom mod.
New release! Much excite. Find bug.
Investigate bug. Find replication steps. Take several screenshots.
Go to report bug. No git. Only discord links.
Delete screenshots and go back to playing.
Create a Lemmy topic? Free and open source, better organized 🤔
What makes you think the Dev will notice a Lemmy post or will even know what Lemmy is, if they’re not even using git for reports and are using a chat client for something that it should have never been used for.
I’m also not going to complain about a free mod created by a dev for the community.
If they wanna have discord as their documentation/issue tracking I just won’t contribute.
i genuinely think compiling the bugs with some details in a youtube video and posting it on youtube would be more useful than finding that discord and joining it lmao
I’m all for providing free support/testing for community projects…
But discord is not meant for documentation/management/bug tracking.
I just can’t even…
The only way to communicate to the dev is via discord. I don’t mind that. But I don’t want to join yet another server!
Many, many people. It can be very hard to avoid. You must live in a foss bubble to think that no one does.
Isn’t everyone living in a Foss bubble already? 🥲
I’m trying my hardest.
Wholesome exchange, folks. Keep up the good work.
this is pretty funny. dickcord lives so far up its own ass that it believes it is above the law. sorry but this wont fly. typical corporation lmao.
I was skeptical about all the hate Discord has been getting recently, but this settled it for me
It’s ALL companies…be skeptical of every single company out there. None of them have their products, or customers care and safety in mind. You are literally disposable to them all…treat them the exact same way.
Eh, mostly true but there are good ones. From Software has a great track record, for example.
Definitely an exception to the rule tho
Like when McDonalds offered free fries or something for everyone who used the app, but then quietly changed the terms of service for the app to include forced arbitration.
Capitalism
What is forced arbitration and why is it bad?
ToS and the like are legal documents that people/customers ‘sign’ or agree to before using a service or product, usually agreed or signed AFTER a purchase has been made. Arbitration causes in these documents mean that you agree to not sue the company for any reason, like a class action lawsuit. Basically if you feel like you have been scammed or taken advantage of by that company, you cannot sue for damages. ToS are not the law though and can be superceded by legal means, like a lawsuit ironically. Correct me if I’m not 100% correct, as I’m not a lawyer and this is just my understanding of this.
https://www.wipo.int/amc/en/arbitration/what-is-arb.html
Essentially, arbitration waives your right to sue the company in any capacity and instead requires all legal disputes to be resolved by a 3rd party mediator hand picked by the company.
You can guess how often these arbitrators rule against the companies that pay them (Spoiler: it’s not often)
It’s used as a get-out-of-jail-free card for companies to basically have legal immunity from any kind of consequences, as all their customers must arbitrate and get told to suck eggs.You can also watch one of Louis Rossmann’s latest rants about ToS changes and arbitration being forced down users’ throats suddenly without warning: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AddtrV6UFFs
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://www.piped.video/watch?v=AddtrV6UFFs
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
If a company does something bad, you can sue to fix it.
Suing sets legal precedent and forces all companies to abide by the ruling, more or less.
But now if a company tricks you out of your right to sue by putting arbitration clauses in everything, then you can’t sue. You can only have a (hopefully) impartial third part tell the company to stop doing something specifically to you. The company is still free to keep doing the thing to everyone else, and their arbitration doesn’t affect any other companies also doing bad things.
There are other issues too.
Most importantly, Discord pays the arbitrator.
I’m sure that this won’t stop the idiots who argue in support of using Discord as a support channel for FOSS projects.
I’m NO LAWYER but it seems to apply to US residents only? EU has their own provisions written down where discord begrudgingly follows the laws there. But for non-eu non-us people this doesn’t seem to apply to us. “IF YOU’RE A U.S. RESIDENT, YOU ALSO AGREE TO THE FOLLOWING MANDATORY ARBITRATION PROVISIONS. PLEASE READ THIS SECTION CAREFULLY – IT MAY SIGNIFICANTLY AFFECT YOUR LEGAL RIGHTS, INCLUDING YOUR RIGHT TO FILE A LAWSUIT IN COURT:”
For folks who will continue using discord, and that’s probably most folks, it would be a good time to change your account email to an alias if you haven’t already. They have clearly stated they are about to get sketch AF.
I’m not sure what most of this means or how it could affect me, but you’re saying that as an EU citizen, this is not something I should be overly concerned with?
It means that the forced arbitration provisions do not apply to you if you’re in the EU, so you can still sue them by other means and with people not paid by them.
That’s good to hear. Everyone else was only talking about the US and EU, and I’m like… “what about me, who doesn’t live in either?” 😐
