Without the support of Congress, it will be “difficult” for Ukraine to win, “even to stay,” Zelenskyy said in a video meeting with fundraising supporters, including Mark Hamill and billionaire Richard Branson.
Nightmare blunt rotation
Anyway, wow! You mean every time Russia was said to be slowing down or taking unsustainable levels of casualties wasn’t entirely true? Wow!
That was propaganda. Without it people would say “why wasting money if they will lose anyway?”
I think the weakness of Ukraine is also narrative.
Whatever narrative they push, it’s completely unrelated to the truth.
When they wanted western sympathy and when the western funds were rolling, it was the plucky tractor brigade killing Russians at $1.40 a kill.
Now that they aren’t getting another aid package, the front lines are about to collapse and Russia will be in Warsaw by summer.
It’s all bullshit. As in it’s unrelated to the truth. The truth has no relationship to what Zelenskyy says.
The fact Ukraine is starting to push an imminent collapse narrative is a key factor in me believing collapse is not in fact imminent.
You are right, you can’t use only information Ukraine or Russia provides. But it probably is the case that Ukraine was stomping Russia for pennies on the dollar earlier in the war. However, Russia is not a static force. They learn and change their tactics, and Russia spends more resources now than they did earlier.
It would be a grave mistake to stop aid to Ukraine while they are still willing and able to fight.
The West has spent many times Russias military budget and hundreds of thousands of soldiers only to lose the war.
Russia will likely gain several states worth of land.
Unsure how this is a “good deal”, even in the most psychopathic framing possible. I’d think that would mean Russia is getting the good deal in that case? They have spent far less and gained actual winnings.
“The west has spent many times Russia’s military budget” Source?
It would be a grave mistake to stop aid to Ukraine while they are still willing and able to fight.
While who is still willing to fight? The conscripted who are forced to fight or the neonazis who volunteered to fight?
But it probably is the case that Ukraine was stomping Russia for pennies on the dollar earlier in the war.
When the aid was flowing the narrative was that this was a “good investment” which is why they sold you with this “pennies on the dollar” angle.
Put down the slava pipe and have a look at what the cost basis is for western military gear vs Russian stuff. It’s rarely better than 5:1 even for basic stuff like shells and advanced stuff runs at around 10:1. The idea that it was “pennies on the dollar” is crazy shit.
It’s all narrative. It doesn’t have a relationship to facts on the ground. It’s a sales pitch.
“Pennies on the dollar” refers more to the fact that we have mostly sent old equipment that’s already paid for and would otherwise never see the light of day, while also avoiding the use of any US/NATO manpower to massively undermine an adversary. It’s a great deal, i.e. pennies on the dollar.
I guess it’s edifer to just call everything a “narrative” though than try and understand current events.
It’s a great deal if you’re a monster who doesn’t pay any mind to the broken Ukrainian bodies littering the trenches for the past few years. More conscripts for the meat grinder, it’s cost-effective! Fucking ghouls, I swear.
And who’s to blame here? Have you considered blaming the invading force, or does it have to be the west for your sensibilities? Everything would be great if we all just rolled over when invaders arrive at the gates!
pennies on the dollar
Psychopathic framing. “Look how efficiently we’re killing people!”
Also great example of conflating states with people. Maybe Ukraine still wants to fight, but Ukrainians are being conscripted against their will. In the same way, wearing Russia down may serve the interests of the US government, but it certainly doesn’t benefit the American people in any way. The best thing for the Ukrainian people would be to stop the killing at any cost, even if it meant territorial concessions. They could’ve saved countless lives if they’d done this from the start, and eventually that’s what’s going to happen anyway, but unfortunately countless people have died and countless more will before the ruling class decides to stop forcing the poor into the meat grinder.
How the fuck is my life supposed to be better because of dead Russian soldiers?
Do they mean that Mark Hamill?
The Luke Skywalker one? Yes. Notorious shitlib
Not shocking being a Hollywood guy, though I do really like his work as Luke/The Jonkler
Everyone’s allowed a couple problematic faves. My favorite turn-brain-off movie is still Anchorman, even though they drop their first R-word about 90 seconds into the film.
Not just a shitlib but also a (probably inadvertent) nazi supporter.
He stans Israel so uniroincally yes he does support actual Nazis.
Ukraine is going to lose with aid, all giving them more money does is allow them to not negotiate for longer.
If you think Ukraine won’t muster a guerilla resistance fierce enough to make France blush you haven’t been paying attention.
It’s not like Russia haven’t dealt with those before…
Removed by mod
What makes you think their gonna start now after it’s been going for more than two years and there even having trouble conscripting in western Ukraine ?
If they’ve ran out of volunteers in the more nationalist west how are they going to find them in the occupied territories where patriotism to Ukraine has always been lower?
Because you have to be occupied before you can do guerilla resistance? Also because guerilla activities require fewer personnel than an armed mobilization?
If Ukraine fell to invasion, as in like their lines collapse and they lose the territory they’re currently holding, now every Ukrainian who might consider fighting is already behind enemy lines. Instead of being concentrated physically and very obviously defending themselves you’d have a very pissed off post-invasion population able to act inside of occupied territory. Look at the resistance fighters in occupied France in WWII. Putin isn’t going to have an easy time even if he manages to push an invasion force through.
Good luck holding a country that fights as hard as Ukraine.
That isnt really relevant because Russia would get what they are looking for in the end no matter how much of a resistance there is. All they need to do is finish off their army, and not allow a new government to form and they have achieved their goal.
I’m going to claim my neighbor’s pool as mine, and when they call the cops I’ll blame them for not being willing to negotiate.
False comparison.
Short answer.
It was, I cant really say much about an unrelated hypothetical.
Except that it’s a false comparison with zero explanation. Just enough text to know I should dismiss your opinion.
Good job.
Thank you!
Lol “negotiate”. Just like Crimea eh? What a riot.
Negotiate what? If they would consent to their genocide?
Sure thing!
Found the vatnik.
Sorry if you cant handle the truth, its just the objective reality of the facts.
as told by the Kremlin. Good Comrade
Ooohhh down voted, guess the Russian troll army don’t like being called out.
As told by all the mainstream western media buddy.
No, it’s your opinion.
Its the opinion of everyone that has any level of information of the situation and is honest.
Really depends on what you mean by loose, and what constitutes a win for Russia.
Russia’s original objective was to waltz to Kyiv and kick down a rotten door, expecting the house to follow. Well that didn’t work out, so what’s the new objective?
Is a win occupying all of Ukraine, just the peninsula, or just realizing the new territory in donbos? If you are talking about the peninsula or the breakaway territory, yea they could probably get away with that pretty easily, but that’s pretty much where we started. But, I would hesitate calling it a win to waste generations worth of military equipment and men to maintain the status quo.
If you are talking about permanently occupying the entirety of the country… I’m not really sure if that’s even an obtainable goal? They are still fighting for every kilometer in eastern Ukraine, and defences will only get tougher as you head west. Plus, they won’t want to utilize the type of bombardments they use to avoid urban combat in the larger eastern cities. At least not if they are the ones who are expecting to pay the bills when this is all over.
This whole venture is only profitable if they actually get to fully integrate Ukrainians into the Russian federation, and with how bloody this war has been, that means a significant occupation force, likely over half a million soldiers.
Win in my opinion would be have the ability to control all of Ukraine eventually, or force Ukaine to capitulate. Maybe they would not be able to occupy because that was never their goal, it was to stop Ukraine from joining nato.
Win in my opinion would be have the ability to control all of Ukraine eventually, or force Ukaine to capitulate.
I wouldn’t say they’re doing so well on the hearts and minds front…
As far as capitulation, that’s what we’re talking about here. What could they possibly capitulate too that would be considered a win at this point? Just about the only thing that would come close is the entirety of Ukraine, and maybe a chunk of Moldavia? That’s going to be an occupation, and everyone knows how well those go these days.
was to stop Ukraine from joining nato.
Okay, well mission accomplished. You stopped a neighboring nation from potentially joining, and scarred two other neighbors into the express lane.
Plus, I don’t think that’s really an academically honest opinion. It would be like saying America invaded Iraq because they had weapons of mass destruction.
A lot of Ukrainians were not really excited about NATO prosperity until Russia started pulling the same shenanigans they did in Georgia and Moldavia. It’s not exactly a new tactic in Russia’s foreign policy.
Im all for the facts but wasn’t Russia supposed to win in 3 days? I have a hard time believing much of what they say, in my honest opinion
That was claimed by a US official, which US media distorted and lied about to make it look like that claim came from Russia.
This was not said by Russia, it was said by US General Milley to the US Congress, when he lost his marbles at first when the war started. Later it surfaced as popular cope when NATO shills found a second to breathe.
It’s funny how .ml users and their definition of facts seem to have such a loose relationship.
Must be all the gargling of fascist logic that helps with the mental gymnastics.
I just realized how similar it is to talking to religious zealots, guess I shouldn’t waste my time.
Alright, how do I block all those russian puppets from lemmy.ml?
Go back to Reddit and have your opinions fed to you by billion dollar corporations
Folks, Holden Caulfield thinks we’re phonies. Mission failed; we’ll get ’em next time.
Copypasta from https://lemmy.ml/comment/9279492
- IT Pro: Cambridge Analytica models were exaggerated and ineffective, [UK Information Commissioner’s Office] claims
- Wall Street Journal: Mueller Doesn’t Find Trump Campaign Conspired With Russia
- Jacobin: Democrats and Mainstream Media Were the Real Kremlin Assets
- Washington Post: FEC fines DNC, Clinton for violating rules in funding Steele dossier
- Washington Post: Russian trolls on Twitter had little influence on 2016 voters
- Jacobin: It Turns Out Hillary Clinton, Not Russian Bots, Lost the 2016 Election
- Matt Taibbi: Move Over, Jayson Blair: Meet Hamilton 68, the New King of Media Fraud The Twitter Files reveal that one of the most common news sources of the Trump era was a scam, making ordinary American political conversations look like Russian spywork
- Jacobin: Why the Twitter Files Are in Fact a Big Deal On the Left, there’s been a temptation to dismiss the revelations about Twitter’s internal censorship system that have emerged from the so-called Twitter Files project. But that would be a mistake: the news is important and the details are alarming.
- MSNBC Repeats Hamilton 68 Lies 279 Times in 11 Minutes
- Jeff Gerth at Columbia Journalism Review on Russiagate: Editor’s Note | Part one | Part two | Part three | Part four
- Matt Taibbi: WMD, Part II: CIA “Cooked The Intelligence” To Hide That Russia Favored Clinton, Not Trump In 2016
- Chris Hedges: Why Russiagate Won’t Go Away
You could easily achive your goal by going back to reddit, there’s nothing wrong with it. Seems like federated international community hosted by enthusiasts is just not your cup of tea. Centralized platform which goes to IPO would be able to provide you with echo chamber that you seek for.
The modern American fascist is too soft to hear dissenting opinions.
Sweet as lemon poundcake and softer than corduroy
You can block lemmy.ml and hexbear.net to considerably improve your Lemmy experience.
ok but y r u here tho
Someone has to downvote you
There are plenty of good Lemmy communities that aren’t on those instances. I don’t blanket block them personally, but I understand those who do.
Countries will get fed up of sending aid to Ukraine long before Russia decides to return its annexed territories. We’re already seeing signs of that.
If NATO isn’t willing to go in and force the Russians out themselves, I fail to see how this war is anything but a net gain for Russia. They will just sit back and let their “new territories” become more and more Russified.
To me, the aid is just a delaying tactic to allow Ukraine to continue fighting until the west can figure out a way to accept that Ukraine has lost its territories without losing face.
It’s a shit show, but I don’t share the optimism that a lot of people have for a Ukrainian victory. It’s like a game of chess, and it’s currently Ukraine/NATOs turn, because the Russians are already dug in.
I mean yeah, the Russian Federation has clearly won this one
They will just sit back and let their “new territories” become more and more Russified.
The majority people who live there and have always lived there are Russian
It’s like a game of chess,
No it really isn’t. Its a proxy war forced by US aggression (2014 coup and NATO encirlement). The US achieved its primary goals - 1) to stop its European vassals (primarily Germany) from gaining energy independence through trade with the Russian Federation and get them back in line 2) to sell old weapon stocks/war profiteering for defense industry and make room for new weapons stores/more profits for defense industry.
The fact they’ve met these goals is the main reason why funding will stop, because there is no reason to fund Ukraine anymore. The US has won - Ukraine was always going to lose in this scenario.
Over 100k dead Russians isn’t really a “net victory” regardless of territory gained
Ukraine=Palestine. Noone will fight for ir and will get robbed by the powerful bandit, Israel (Rússia).
Except that US politicians pretend it’s the opposite
Donbas = Palestine if Palestine had a powerful friend to kick Israel out of Gaza.
It’s absolutely absurd to compare the Western settler colony of Israel’s “relationship” with Palestine to the Russia’s relationship with Ukraine. Israel, since its inception, has been oriented towards the subjugation, displacement, and slaughter of Palestinians as a whole, whereas Russia is responding to Western-backed Nazi aggressors. Investigate Operation Aerodynamic, NATO’s Operation Gladio, the US and Nazi role in the 2014 coup, hell what do you mean nobody will fight for Ukraine? The CIA have trained soldiers and there has been billions sent in aid by the US.
Ukraine=Palestine and Israel=Russia is peak Marvel brain.
Germany=Britain
Benin=Lichtenstein
Yakub = Jesus
But have you considered Zelenskyyyyyyy = Iron Man and Putin = Thanos? Probably not. Back to your echo chamber now tankie
The echo chamber/bubble trope is hilarious because we’re exposed to exactly the same media they are. They’re working with a subset of the information we are and then say we’re in a bubble.
For libs, its only propaganda if they disagree with it. If they agree with it then its just objective facts and journalism
I think it’s more Ukraine = Czechcoslovakia, Russia = Nazi Germany. Every justification russia has given I heard germany give in 1938.
What’s Marvel brain? I tried looking it up but just got a bunch of marvel characters with large heads.
Idealist, cartoonish, black & white, good vs. evil thinking. Either you are with us or you are with the terrorists thinking.
Imperial core governments and the corporate media present to us a cartoonish, Marvel Cinematic Universe version of the world that serves the capitalist class’ interests, particularly their imperialist interests. Inventing Reality and Manufacturing Consent laid this out almost 40 years ago.
Ukraine=good=democracy, Russia=bad=authoritarian. Russia’s invasion was unprovoked because history began on Feb. 24, 2022. Russia is doing genocide (bullshit), never mind the previous decade of Ukraine-backed neonazis genociding the people of the Donbas; or that, for 30 years, people from Noam Chomsky to Jeffrey Sachs to Henry Kissinger warned against breaking our promise not to expand NATO eastward toward Russia. Russia is an oligarchy, never mind Ukraine’s oligarchic coup government that the US installed a decade ago. Ukraine is a democracy, never mind that it has suspended opposition parties and cancelled elections.
NATO is seeking to take control of decision-making powers on future aid packages — normally led by the US — in an effort to limit the impact of a potential second Donald Trump presidency on the ongoing conflict.
This is wild. It’s bad enough that the US president has the power to start wars wherever he wants with no congressional approval. But now they’re trying to make it so that the only people with the authority to withdraw from a conflict are unelected NATO officials accountable to no one.
Dronies will support this, because they love endless war across the globe and want to remove any potential for popular support to achieve peace.
And who’s gonna die this time
Lose away bozo, you got played
will the neonazis kill him right away or wait til he has been living in Miami for awhile?
My money’s on ‘on the airstrip trying to flee’.
nice job america, now in addition to everything else, you’ve lost a war you weren’t even fighting in. Fuck yeah!
Are you implying Ukraine has lost the war? That’s just not true, they still hold territory that according to Putin is part of Russia
deleted by creator
“you have lost” is past tense
Yes, “you have lost” is present perfect and describes that the loss occurred at some unspecified point in time before. It can also describe a loss which effects can still be felt in the present.
The implication is that OP is convinced that Ukraine has no chance of holding their lines, as you correctly pointed out earlier.
People in this thread clearly don’t understand what the implications are. There is a very clear danger of war on the European continent that will involve NATO and by proxy the US. Aid for Ukraine is the absolute cheapest option. Europe is not going to just let Ukraine fall and will ramp up their involvement. We already have France willing to send troops.
the US is already involved by proxy
Well not very much with that speakerguy in the house.
Ok genocidaire
You don’t understand that the only danger of further war is again from US/NATO. Europe is going to let Ukraine fall because it has no choice. France is a laughing stock. Even what they threatened to send could do nothing.
Comment from the Torygrapgh readership:
@LarkinDePark @Alsjemenou because appeasement totally works with dictators and lebensraum
I honestly don’t think Zelensky is a Nazi. He may be an open Nazi collaborator but I think he sees that as a necessity. Dictator yes, but lebensraum? You mean with the breakaways?
“By proxy” doesn’t change the nature of what he is. Collaboration is complicity. If there’s a Nazi at the table and 10 other people sitting there talking to him, you got a table with 11 Nazis.
@LarkinDePark appeasing putin with the slaughter of Kyiv won’t stop him from taking the transinistra.
putin needs to be stopped.
How do the people of Transinistria feel about this?
You don’t understand that the only danger of further war is again from US/NATO
You… Don’t think war with NATO constitutes war on the European continent?
If you’re implying that US/NATO is a provoking factor and that Russia isn’t going to seek more than Ukraine, why don’t we ask Poland what happened in 1939 when Germany promised they weren’t going to want more than the sudetenland in 1938?
The idea that a fascist, invading state is just going to stop is not only ridiculously optimistic and a little irrational, it’s also historically unsound.
Blaming US/NATO for what is ultimately happening because of Russia is apologizing for a warmonger.
Aid for Ukraine is the absolute cheapest option
One who consider a proxy war where thousand people die and a country get destroyed the “cheapest option” tells you how much they are in bad faith. For politicians your life is indeed cheap and something they can trash away for profits
So no aid to Ukraine and show Russia that it can indeed start wars where thousands die and destroy countries, without negative consequences?
As long as it doesn’t mess up with their business no government in the world care if russia starts a war. Where’s the aid to gaza as a genocide is happening at the hands of israel? War is a business and politicians wants more of it
Where are the negative consequences for America? Why can America invade any country it wants and kill hundreds of thousands of innocent women and children but for some reason when Russia does it we have to show them they aren’t allowed?
Only America and its allies can start wars and commit genocides?
I didn’t condone the USA’s actions, and it’s clear from your comment that you assume I would. It’s clear to me who is the aggressor in this conflict between Ukraine and Russia, and it’s not Ukraine.
Don’t let your disdain for one imperialist push you over to another.
Classic whataboutism.
Because the US does interventionism, fund far-right politicians, etc., Russia (and China) can do as such, and even more. At least the US doesn’t want to “regain it’s old lost territories”.
In fairness it’s a solid criticism considering there’s two kinds of comparisons that aren’t made on equal footing. To argue U.S.'s kind of intervention is the same as the Russias, would be more appropriate to consider Russia’s pre 2014 involvement in Ukraine. If you want to compare full-scale military operations then ZILtoid makes a good point. We haven’t tried to annex another country in a long time.
I’m not talking about just money. Of course in current capitalist society we analyse through the lens of finances. But obviously the cost of war includes the loss of human life. And of course some people will manage to profit financially from war. This isn’t a revolutionary thought.
What I mean is that due to the obligation of being a NATO member, there is no way around having to join war in the EU. Actual boots on the ground, full blown, war machine goes choo-choo war. That costs many hundreds or even thousands of American lives. And yes, billions a day.
If you don’t want that, then having Putin lose in Ukraine in key. It’s key because it will diminish his political backing in Russia.
That costs many hundreds or even thousands of American lives.
Better dispose of the ukrainians instead
America isn’t disposing anybody. Russia is.
This is a delicate situation. If a NATO country is sending troops to Ukraine, it will escalate the war into a full blown world war.
We know what happened in both world wars, so there is no good answers here.
The good answer is not seeking war and destruction
Generally, I’d agree with that sentiment. However, what path forward would provide the best way out of the situation and discourage further conflict in the region?
When we look at the lead up to WW2, we see a build-up of tension by Germany and attempted appeasement by the other major powers in an effort to avoid another breakout of war in Europe, only a few decades after the first great war ravaged these nations.
Notable events:
- Remilitarization of the Rhineland (Mar 1936) – this was a clear power move and violation of the Treaty of Versailles that ended WW1. With no real reaction from the France/Britain, this was a clear indication to Hitler he could continue to push things much further.
- Anschluss (Annexation of Austria, Mar 1938) - Germany was prepared to take Austria by force, but managed to do so with only the threat of violence. This was also against the Treaty of Versailles and also had no real reaction from the Allied powers.
- Sudetenland conquest (Sept 1938) - Germany pressures Czechoslovakia for pieces of it’s territory that border Germany. British PM finally gets involved, allowing the exchange of territory for a promise of peace. This is the famous " Peace for our time declaration.
- Annexation of territory from Lithuania (Mar 1939) - Lithuania pressed to give up territory under threat of war.
- Czech/Slovokia split and occupation/control (Mar 1939) - Under further pressure and threat of invasion, Czechoslovakia split and both come under German control.
- Invasion of Poland by Germany and USSR (Sept 1939) - First open conflict. France and Britain declare war on Germany, roughly a year after the “Peace for our time” negotiations/declaration that clearly made a difference!
As you can see, in the build-up to WW2, the European powers that opposed German expansion sought alternatives. They even allowed Germany to push its weight around on its neighbors, taking territory from others, and consolidating power. By the time the great powers were forced into conflict by open war in Poland, they were no longer in a position to hope to control Germany at all, doubly so with their apparent new cooperation with the USSR.
Knowing what happened, it’s easy to see that any intervention by France and/or Britain, whether it sparked violence or not, in the early days of German aggression would have almost certainly led to a less powerful Germany, perhaps one that could not have taken over most of Europe so easily.
I think the key take away from all of this is that, modern nations that have a desire for conquest are a danger to all. They are not to be believed, they should not be appeased, they should not be rewarded. Any violence against free nations should be resisted, supported by all free nations, but without escalation to full-blown nuclear war.
The danger of washing our hands of the conflict and saying something like, “Violence bad. End the war. They can have Ukraine/Donetsk/whatever.” is that Russia won’t stop there. They’ll get bigger, stronger, and move on to the next target when they’re ready.
The horrible part about all of this is that the apparent best way to keep long-term violence down is to continue the fighting now. The longer the conflict continues, and the more humiliated Russia becomes, the less likely Russia will chose to do a similar invasion in the future.
Generally, I’d agree with that sentiment. However, what path forward would provide the best way out of the situation and discourage further conflict in the region?
Stopping the war industry and ceasing all sort of imperialistic activities, even on one side alone will put at end on most conflicts but every ruler is in for more wealth and power, they don’t want to stop. This does not mean that because someone is doing it everyone has to follow suit, it literally means that every corrupted politician and their government seek war.
If there’s anything to be extrapolated from history is that ramping up for war and fueling authoritarian regimes brings you exactly war and dictatorships.
Any violence against free nations should be resisted
So do you agree that palestine should have the rights to defend themself against israel?
The danger of washing our hands
If there’s anyone washing their hands is politicians drinking champagne in dubai next to russian yachts. The same politicians that send people money to ukraine goverement.
Yeah, but Russia invaded Ukraine. So what should be done now.
If left to their own devices, Ukraine would be annexed to Russia and surrounding countries would be next. The casualties would probably be less here (not guaranteed) and the quality of life of the Ukrainians would drastically degrade.
If NATO sends boots on the ground, then it becomes a full blown world war with warring countries having lots of nukes. The casualties are enormous with a potential doomsday scenario.
Right now, NATO finance a proxy war. Ukrainians fight back and hard to shut out Russians. They need the tech and financing to do so. If they don’t have it, Russia takes over and we go back to the first scenario. Casualties are high.
There is no good ending where Russia negotiate peace and return home. War fucking sucks, and there is no good answer.
Yeah, but Russia invaded Ukraine. So what should be done now.
What about putting sanction on china for providing russia weapons or on emirates and turkey for allowing russian to just chill there and bypass restrictions?
If left to their own devices, Ukraine would be annexed to Russia and surrounding countries would be next.
Where do you got this from? Is Israel planning to invade the whole middle east after they invaded gaza?
the quality of life of the Ukrainians would drastically degrade.
Would it actually? Ukraine turned into an authoritatian regime under martial law where no man between 18 and 60 can leave the country. There’s probably many brave ukranians fighting for freedom but it’s the ukranian government getting money and weapons.
The casualties are already high and the country is getting destroyed, it’s just not happening in your garden
The answer is the west won. Presumably a good answer
Anglo dominance over the world is why the world is ending. Y’all are fucking shit stewards of a planet.
But Amarica bad, hypercapitalist dictator good.
Mate, you’re in a communist instance. People here aren’t going to see the writing on the wall because they believe Russia is the good guy in this.
It is a bad idea to trust and rely on Ameeica. Some Afgans learned this lesson in 2021, the same is happening to Ukraine now.
Many such cases!
Gaddafi’s is just sad. Such a terrible decision to give up their nuclear deterrence and trust western governments.
Nukes are why the DPRK hasn’t been invaded again, and why it hasn’t ended up Libya is now.
Sad, but true
Ukraine gave up their nukes in exchange for peace with Russia, then got invaded by Russia.
Ukraine was very much at peace with Russia as it always had been before the 2014 coup and the resulting fascist gov that didn’t care about such agreements.
The fascist government is the one invading Ukraine, my guy.
How many times are we going to go over this, my guy?
- BBC, 2014: Ukraine underplays role of far right in conflict
- Human Rights Watch, 2014: Ukraine: Unguided Rockets Killing Civilians
- Truthout, 2015: The Ukraine Mess That Nuland Made
- The Hill, 2017: The reality of neo-Nazis in Ukraine is far from Kremlin propaganda
- The Guardian, 2017: ‘I want to bring up a warrior’: Ukraine’s far-right children’s camp – video
- WaPo, 2018: The war in Ukraine is more devastating than you know
- Reuters, 2018: Ukraine’s neo-Nazi problem
- The Nation, 2019: Neo-Nazis and the Far Right Are On the March in Ukraine
- The Conversation, 2022: Ukraine war follows decades of warnings that NATO expansion into Eastern Europe could provoke Russia
OK, there are fascists in Ukraine, like in a lot of countries. How does it give Russia the right to invade and carry out a genocide?
they weren’t ukrainian nukes. they were soviet nukes and ukraine didn’t have the money or expertise to take care of them.
I wouldn’t put it that way exactly. Ukraine was a constituent part of the USSR, and eastern Ukraine was a major industrial hub. I don’t know the history of it, but perhaps giving the nukes to Russia was part of the deal made in the Post-Soviet transition in Ukraine.
Russia inherited the Soviet military for the most part. It’s unlikely that Ukraine could have used those nukes in the first place.
Did Libya have a substantial development program?
Gaddafi is another example yes, but let’s not have any sympathy for a horrible dictator that tortured and abused his subjects to the point where they sodomized him with a bayonet.
subjects
You mean insurgents funded by the west after having them give up their nuclear deterrence because it posed a major threat to capitalism/imperialism in the region.
Libya went from one of the poorest countries in the world to having the highest human development index in Africa by 2010 under the socialist government. Housing and healthcare were made a human right and youth literacy reached pretty much 100%.
Yes, I’ll have sympathy for the country that was basically extorted by the west through brutal sanctions into disarming itself so it could be invaded and destroyed, as any human should.
He made it better for Arabs, everyone else was treated horribly. But hey I guess being a dictator is fine as long as the people you like are being treated okay and fuck everyone else. How very Modi of you.
everyone else was treated horribly
Who was everyone else?
But hey I guess being a dictator
Libya in Gadafi’s time was more democratic than the United States has ever been. Libya: How To Kill a Nation
When Five Eyes governments and corporate media tell you who is and isn’t a “dictator,” they do it to manufacture consent for regime change.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
[citation needed]
Gaddafi was a leader in the liberation struggle against the Global North’s imperialism.
It was Gaddafi who was sodomized with a bayonet. Wikipedia: Killing of Muammar Gaddafi
The NTC initially claimed Gaddafi died from injuries sustained in a firefight when loyalist forces attempted to free him, although a video of his last moments shows rebel fighters beating him and one of them sodomizing him with a bayonet before he was shot several times.
In typical US fashion, it fabricated atrocities as a pretext for regime change: 2011 Libyan rape allegations
Three women, loads of lies and the destruction of Libya
Hillary Clinton, Susan Rice and Samantha Power were the three principal advocates of war against Libya in 2011, setting the North African nation on a free fall ever since. Demonstrations broke out in some Libyan cities against the government of late Muammar Gaddafi in February 2011, in what became known as the “Arab Spring” that engulfed the region. However, Libya’s promised spring turned into a destructive autumn during which Gaddafi was murdered on 20 October, 2011, and Libya was left anguishing in lawlessness, courtesy of the three women.
The US does this all the time; it’s still doing it. The blueprint of regime change operations
Fight for “democracy” /s
Ukraine rely on a lot more than just the USA. But what else can they do? It’s either that or they get annexed.
Their are a small country versus a world power.
The region doesn’t rely on the US, the post-2014 fascist government does.
There wasn’t a problem here until the US-backed coup in 2014 and subsequent killing of eastern Ukrainians and Crimeans by the coup gov.
fascist
You mean Putin?
No yew
Just so many things wrong there…
- Ukraine became reliant on US military aid after Russia invaded in 2014 with the help of separatists they funded. The same strategy they have employed in Georgia and Moldova.
- There is zero evidence that the US did any coup in Ukraine. There is plenty for it being a revolution against Yanukovych after he broke his election promises and brutally supressed protests caused by that. That in turn triggered a full blown revolution.
- The Minsk agreements were never honored by Russia as one of the clauses was for Russia to remove their troops from the regions, which never happened.
- Post 2014 those regions were occupied by Russia. Ukraine was fighting against an occupation, not bombing civilians for fun.
- Eastern Ukraine has never wanted to join Russia, it was occupied in 2014. Yanukovych was elected with the promise of closer economic ties with Europe, not Russia.
How is not a single part of your post true? Debunking bullshit always takes longer but I guess that’s the strategy with disinformation.
Apparently the mods on lemmy.ml support Russian disinformation as this got removed with the comment “Misinfo-see nuland/pyatt call”. I have heard that call in its full context as it gets brought up as the only evidence. What it actually ended up being were 2 US politicians discussing that the most likely person to take over as Yanukovych fled took over. Literally anyone familiar with the politics in Ukraine can come to the same conclusion.
You know that Lemmy is the last sanctuary of the most insane people ridiculed everywhere else where you see comments like that having positive rating lol.
Feel free to point out what you disagree with.
Well, you spelled Ukraine correctly, I guess
One doesn’t go to a nuthouse to reason with patients :)
So… no argument?
If the lead and microplastics in the water don’t take you out, overt collapse will; and I pray I get to watch it happen you absolute defect
You replying seems to indicate otherwise.
Loving the ableism btw
ridiculed everywhere else
Just the anglosphere-dominated spaces like reddit that are full of US propaganda.
Guessing none of the other nations are doing anything either
Which Congress?
Which do you think?
Exactly. People need to remember that this is the Internet, not their home country. We don’t know where you’re from.
You can use your powers of deductive reasoning to come to the correct answer.
Or maybe you can’t… lol.
There are two types of people. Those who can extrapolate a conclusion from an incomplete data set and
do i hear maga idiots get wet?
Hahaha I get it. It’s funny because the people you don’t like are implied to be women.
yawn. your type of ppl bore me so much.
anyway, it is funny because maga idiots think dating taylor is gay which actually would only be true if they were girls dressing like men. that is how I perceive maga idiots. or ppl like you.
I am nowhere near terminally online enough to understand a word of what you just said
girls dressing like men
As a transfem in a situation where I frequently have to present as a guy: thanks?
Well that sucks.
It doesn’t suck. Well, it does for the west.
Time to end the war and give peace a chance.
Yeah, giving the five bordering regions of Russia to Ukraine, including Belgorod would be the best compensation.
Unfortunately for the Ukrainian people, this attitude you and the rest of the West hold has lead them to utter disaster.
If you could back it up with actual military success, it’d be reasonable.
But instead, all of Europe and the US is about to lose to post Soviet Russia, and Ukraine has paid the price.
Yeah, that tends to happen when you get you provoke a war then get your shit stomped. All this could have been avoided if the West kept their dick out of the former Eastern Bloc over the last couple decades, but they didn’t, and this is where we ended up. We fucked up their country, and they get to pay the consequences for our actions.
The “I’m not hitting you! I’m not hitting you! Look! I’m not hitting you, nyah nyah!.. mmMMMMOOOOOMMMMMMMM HE HIT ME! HE STARTED IT!” defense doesn’t work if you’re a fucking country.
Biden frantically sends more aid to israel
It’s not his money I don’t he really care where they get wasted
Biden’s aimed to send aid to both.
Only bypassed Congress and did secret deals for israel.
Bollocks. Congress was totally on board, supporting Israel far past the point they deserve is one of the few mostly bipartisan issues in the US
This framing makes it seem like Biden is going against the majority congressional sentiment, but he is not. The US congress, overall, is supportive of sending military support to Israel, as evidenced by their passing bills other aid bills, which is a slower process.
