Teachers describe a deterioration in behaviour and attitudes that has proved to be fertile terrain for misogynistic influencers
“As soon as I mention feminism, you can feel the shift in the room; they’re shuffling in their seats.” Mike Nicholson holds workshops with teenage boys about the challenges of impending manhood. Standing up for the sisterhood, it seems, is the last thing on their minds.
When Nicholson says he is a feminist himself, “I can see them look at me, like, ‘I used to like you.’”
Once Nicholson, whose programme is called Progressive Masculinity, unpacks the fact that feminism means equal rights and opportunities for women, many of the boys with whom he works are won over.
“A lot of it is bred from misunderstanding and how the word is smeared,” he says.
But he is battling against what he calls a “dominance-based model” of masculinity. “These old-fashioned, regressive ideas are having a renaissance, through your masculinity influencers – your grifters, like Andrew Tate.”
YouTube Algorithms, facebook Algorithms, etc. make them all publishers responsible for their content.
If you do that, kiss the Fediverse goodbye.
“A lot of it is bred from misunderstanding and how the word is smeared,”
The same could be said about “communism” and “socialism”. The words have been turned dirty, such that people shy away from what is objectively a good thing when done honestly and to the letter of the principle.
Communism kind-of smeared itself. Everywhere where communism has been tried on a national scale, it has become authoritarianism.
Maybe it would be a good thing if done to the letter of the principle, but just like Libertarianism or Anarchism, it seems to be incompatible with human nature, at least so far.
But, socialism isn’t even a foreign idea. A lot of US institutions are socialist. The mail delivery is done by an arm of the government. Streets are paved by the government. Firefighters are government employees. The water delivered to your house is almost certainly by a government-run entity. People retiring without having saved enough are taken care of by the government. There’s medicare and medicaid.
A full capitalist system would have nothing done by the government that could be done by a business. No FDA, Pinkertons instead of Police, most army functions handed over to private contractors, every road privately owned and maintained, etc.
I agree with just about everything you’ve said. Communism has had too many failures that have affected too many people, the word is tainted.
To grossly oversimplify it, capitalism is the way of business and trade, while socialism is the way of society and governance. The two things are separate, but the issue we have is that businesses are dictating policy to governments in their exclusive interest, rather than the other way around with governments focusing on the overall good of society.
To be fair, the term “feminist” was highjacked by the radical feminist movement. They very much do not believe in equality, their motto is “kill all men”
I think it’s easy to see why that would turn people away. Hence why I describe myself as an equalizer, not a feminist.
Edit: my statement was very reasonable and I’m willing to engage in discussion about what I have witnessed. If you think I’m pushing an agenda or trying to convince others of anything, feel free to check my post history. However, if you accuse me of pushing an agenda or lying or anything else, you are engaging in false faith and will be blocked. I have a long history of supporting women’s rights, as evidenced by several posts I have made. But I will not stand for being accused of being a right winger.
I think again that was one that was actually hijacked by the right wing. There is far more fearmongering about hardcore feminists than there are hardcore feminists.
While your second statement is true, there are still far too many extremists. I find it very difficult to believe that all the hatred I viewed from feminists on Tumblr and r/FemaleDatingStrategy and many other sources(like my ex who fell into that stuff) were right wingers. Just like one incel is too many(and you don’t hear people claiming incels don’t exist), one person calling for the death or enslavement of half the planet is too many.
Somebody’s mad they can’t get laid whenever they want.
comments like this are what’s hijacking it.
Fuckin lmao, you are so full of shit. You know damn well you’ve seen so many Tumblr posts, tshirts, and other bullshit that says the same things. “Kill all men” “All men are evil” “Low value men”
I guarantee you’ve seen all of that, it’s not at all uncommon. You choose to ignore it because you don’t like it. But that’s not how the world works. Other people, surprise surprise, don’t want to be associated with a movement calling for their death.
Enjoy your narrative, but welcome to the real world
I haven’t. And now I believe you even less and think you are intentionally spreading rumors or lies because you have an agenda.
So much misinformation.
Funnily, Capitalism could work too but I don’t expect billionaires to be honest or have any principles apart from hoarding for themselves.
I mean you could also say that Capitalism is a dirty word in some circles. And yet, it addresses many of the aspects of trade, which are needed through all societal systems.
If you don’t want to parent your own son, there is someone out there willing to do it for you. They will not do a good job.
This is a really great point, but notably in this article there’s a guy trying to “do it for you” with at least good intentions telling young men about feminism.
IMO, he’s doing a pretty terrible job of it though. You’re not going to reach tate followers by telling them about feminism.
I feel like a lot of people confuse feminism for straight up misandry. #killallmen? #maletears? These were started by so called “feminists” but this is the definition of misandry.
And people wonder why young men don’t like feminism when this might have been their only exposure to it.
The mis-characterization of feminists into “feminazis” started with Anita Saarkesian. I remember gamers coming after her hard during gamergate for literally no reason at all. If you go back and watch old Feminist Frequency episodes she wasnt saying anything insane at all. They were all solidly rational observations about the way women were portrayed in games.
The term feminazi began long before gamergate and the movement was a genuine protest against the relationship between game studios and the people pretending to be journalists and honest reviewers.
I watched as the incels and right wing nut jobs rolled in and made it about who Zoe Quinn was fucking. What people don’t remember is that she was a narcissistic sociopath who ruined anyone who crossed her and got actual feminists chased off the internet. Reframing the debate to be about slut shaming allowed the incels and the faux feminists to hijack any meaningful dialogue and all the reasonable people distanced themselves from the issue.
And how much of that is actually created to stoke anti-feminist attitudes?
Almost none of it is created to stoke anti-feminist attitudes, but it is certainly spread to do so.
There was this great tumblr post a couple years ago that I can’t seem to find anymore about how when feminists spread phrases like ‘all men are trash’, even if in context it doesn’t seem offensive or bigoted, people who dislike feminism will spread it to people offended by it without the additional context and say “look, see! Feminists hate all men! They hate you! Why would you as a man want to help people who hate you unconditionally?!”, and unfortunately the people most vulnerable to that type of manipulation are teenage boys, who aren’t exactly likely to seek out the context that’s been removed
Of course, we both understand how “all men are trash” could be said without bigotry within the right context, but for everyone else that doesn’t understand, would someone mind explaining or clarifying?
Gladly! I’ll use an example that I myself witnessed (and helped pull me out of the alt right pipeline, funnily enough) but unfortunately no longer have the link to corroborate my story, as it was deleted by the original post author some time afterwards, I’ll also include a timeline of how it gets into the right wing circles and gets spread around, bolded part for those who just want to know the context:
A young feminist makes a post on a personal blog that includes the text “all men are trash” as part of a larger critique on masculine culture and how it negatively everyone, including men. IIRC it was something like “all men are trash, they do bad things [other examples, leading paragraph type stuff]” and then continues in the next couple of lines “That’s what men are supposed to be and are lead to be under a patriarchy, but these values are harmful to everyone, them included, that’s why the men who don’t end up like this, and end up kind and nice, are demonized by those men who did end up evil and cruel, they disprove the need for a patriarchy, [the rest of the article]” (again, this is just what I remember, it may not be fully correct)
Effectively, the author was pointing out that a patriarchal masculine society demonizes men who are kind and help others, while rewarding men who are ruthless and cruel, with the statement “all men are trash” probably being used as an inflammatory statement to make the reader keep reading.*
At some point in the following year, someone in the alt right circle of twitter picks up on this blog and screenshots the paragraph with “all men are trash” and some other minor details that don’t include the part about how the feminist actually critiques the negative influences on men
This screenshot then spreads to right wing indoctrinators, who happily run with it and use to to paint a picture of how feminists hate all men and think they are trash, so as a man you shouldn’t be a feminist, and should hate feminists because they hate you!
Fringe right wing content creators see the indoctrinators takes on this and edit it together with similar examples, some of which are genuine ‘hate all men’ people, others are also taken out of context.
Right wing & right wing adjacent content creators release videos using the edited content to make videos with titles like “FEMINISTS think ALL MEN are trash?!”, where it eventually reaches me,
I find the original blog in order to try to understand why they could possibly think I’m trash and read the rest of the article, I question why the content creator left this out and then start questioning what else they lied to me about, I start watching left wing content creators for alternate perspectives and end up the way I am now: hard core left wing gay guy who cringes at the fact I was ever even right wing adjacent
Thanks for explaining! Let me explain why I disagree with this in general. I’ll share a personal anecdote, bear with me please.
So, a feminist friend shared with me a book on human trafficking for sexual exploitation written by a group of investigative journalists that she had helped translate to Serbian. It was thoroughly researched and well documented. Reading it left a mark on me and taught me things about the world that shatter the childish worldview (this was decades ago, I was a young teenager at the time).
Now, the Serbian translation was prefaced by my friend’s fellow activist who was clearly a misandrist. The preface was filled with slurs and general assumptions of complicity and guilt about exclusively men, despite the fact that even the very book the preface was for stated that men also get trafficked (though less), and that women themselves are not rarely involved in the illegal trafficking chains of operation (think Ghislane Maxwell).
Reading that preface made me feel unjustly attacked and I would have dropped the book and never got to the good, educational part, had it not been for my friend’s highest recommendation (I’m glad I stuck with it). It turns out the woman who wrote this had had bad experiences with men in her life, and used this otherwise well researched book as a vessel to vent her personal hate for men, which was borne out of her own trauma.
While it can be considered “justified” that she feels this way, this damaged greatly the overall message of the Serbian translation, which clearly took a lot of effort to research, document and write, and than translate and publish in my country. Its educational impact was greatly diminished by the editor’s choice (out of activist camaraderie, I’m assuming) to include the hateful text at the very beginning, which unjustly attacks the very audience who would most benefit by learning from the unbiased body of the book. It’s a tragically missed opportunity.
While social media exacerbates these issues (all this happened long before social media existed), and bad faith actors attempt to skew positive feminist messages, I think we shouldn’t excuse the feminist movement for some of its own failings.
To conclude, I’m a male feminist, but I think writing “all men are thrash” or “all cops are bastards”, or “all <broad group> are <slur>” in general in the public sphere is irresponsible.
Thank you for your response! I must apologize firstly for the late reply (I do my best to be on social media as little as possible lately) and secondly for giving off the impression that I am in favor of using terms like “all men are trash”, I am against them entirely, not only do they create situations that are easy to manipulate and spin, but they also tend to give power to genuinely awful groups within the feminist movement (TERFs, anti-masc homophobes, misandrist, etc)
My response was intended to give an example where the phrase could be taken out of context to be more negative than its original context.
Believe me, I know the hate all men type feminists exist, and it’s baffling to me that they aren’t called out more often by people who care about equality
I agree with most things you wrote, but one thing confuses me. You seem to suggest that writing ‘all men are thrash’ is ok in some contexts, but when spread without that context can radicalize boys?
☝️👏👏
In all honesty, 3rd wave feminism chased away a lot of male allies. Like a whole lot.
But I don’t think that’s what led to Andrew Tate, that is no failure of feminism.
Andrew Tate is the product of hyper capitalistic individualism being held up in all forms and media and real life as ‘the ideal lifestyle’, a rich, aggressive asshole that has enough clout that most people can’t back them down.
The Tates, Trumps, Elons of the world are having their day because our current generation conflates wealth with competence.
And it’s going to ruin our world.
That said, feminism as it stands now is far more welcoming and inclusive to men than it has been in 25 years and I applaud the change.
I’ll probably be downvoted to hell.
TLDR: If your legs are broken and you treat one and ignore the other you’ll fall eventually. That’s women’s and men’s rights. True equality is unachievable without both being fully recovered.
Full achieving women’s rights while putting minimum input into issues men face. Rarely ends well for either. High suicide rates, homelessness, alcoholism, etc. Those who try to find hope turn to their jobs, religions, and terrible role models.
Both sides have them but most people ignore the truth. People like Andrew Tate become influential because the underlying problem is ignored. More bad role models (BRM) will pop up until you treat the cause instead of the symptoms.
It doesn’t help that theres plenty information including studies that highlight the problem and proves the points made by BRM.
This is reinforced by several instances where someone wants to bring awareness to the Men issues being harassed, facing death threats and etc. This also happened when the first and only DV shelter for was opened. The staff and everyone involved faced a huge backlash that they ended up closing it.
A big problem - for ages now - is, that young men just don’t have fathers. There’s a male around, often, but these are rarely “fathers” that convey a whole picture of a male person. I grew up without one, and I can tell you, how confusing that can be. You attach yourself very easily to ideas other male persons have. Thinking for yourself is another skill that’s kinda rare, not only today, it was at any time. It’s hard to navigate these years.
They also are looking for a place to belong. Incels need love too
People hyperfocus on the 1% of crazy feminists instead of the other 99% who are actually normal and reasonable. Sadly that 1% are doing more harm to the public image of feminism than good.
We live in an age of twitter screenshot outrage and that pathetically emboldens some peoples beliefs so the root cause really is social media. Nothing more nothing less.
The only time I ever hear about that 1% is from the conservative propaganda machine, or MSM rebuttal. They hold zero power outside of the conservative cinematic universe.
At this point I consider it nothing more than manufactured outrage.
I mean there’s TERFs, they speak for feminism, no?
People keep forgetting that until recently, TERF used to be the default position of feminism
When recently? Because if you mean 30 years ago, yeah. But by the 00s it wasn’t anymore. And before the 80s it wasn’t yet. It was a powerful force in the second wave.
I see this on my school campus quite a lot. When the male teachers direct students from using an exterior door, they usually just say ok and then around. When the female teachers are on duty and day the same things, they get verbally abused. If I’m out there with the female teachers, there aren’t any issues.
Sadly, this is even an issue at university. As a lecture assistant I will just get ignored or not taken seriously by some groups of young male students. They will talk loudly, ignore my request to not talk during lecture or exercise. My male colleagues don’t have such issues and it angers me more each year…
As a (formerly young) man myself, I can say with experience that boys are gullible. If something just had a veneer of plausibility, then that was good enough for me!
Still, this hit hard, because it’s so true:
He says [about boys]: “It’s not showing that emotional weakness. It’s also the expectation to always be right. Like you are not able to show that you can fail; that there’s more shame in doing something and making a mistake than there is just sort of sitting it out or dropping out.”
He stresses that many of the men he deals with have positive attitudes to women and feminism, but he says some can feel they are being stereotyped, or blamed for others’ actions.
I faced a lot of pressure to be “tough” and “perfect” (I’m not sure where that pressure came from. My parents weren’t the problem). I also misunderstood that feminism only means fairness and equality. “Fortunately”, I was trying to control an anger management issue, and I only recently realized that the experience had the side effect of teaching me that imperfections are normal and nothing to be ashamed of. Being fair was, well, only fair, so although I didn’t notice it, I never had an issue with basic feminism. I didn’t know much about it, but I wasn’t against it, and recognized that guys who were proudly anti-feminist were almost always jerks that I didn’t want to emulate.
He is a bad response to a real problem, as is the toxic misandrist movement that seems to pull people away from productive feminism these days.
But as long as reactions to these extreme positions keep us from discussing the underlying problems or reasonable solutions to them, we’ll never find any real solutions.
What “real problem” is he a response to?
Boys feeling they don’t have a voice and people are not listening to them? It’s right there in the article
Personally this is why I think people should be amplifying the messages of worker rights as much as possible. Improving worker rights in this country would make so many people feel heard including many young men.
I actually agree… We simply ignore the needs of men who are suffering. When was the last time you read a story about a male domestic abuse victim who WASN’T laughed at.
Or like how Google has a doodle for international women’s day but never international men’s day. Not to be dismissive or insensitive to women’s issues, but I’ve seen boys and young men talk about how little things like that give them the impression that their thoughts and feelings are not valid.
There are ofc men’s issues still like how the overwhelming majority workplaces deaths are men or how more men die from suicide than women. Men are more likely to be homeless than women etc
The sexes are supposed to compliment one another. Not compete against one another. We can acknowledge that there are issues for both sides while still being sensitive and respectful.
I think there’s a lesson in there about teaching people that weren’t around for the formation of a movement about why targeted movements exist.
It’s not just with kids but with people that are tuned out… I think too many people fall through the cracks into white power, toxic masculinity, incel groups, etc because on the surface the questions are of course…
“well why don’t I have a support group for X? what makes that group of people special? why do they get their own day?”
Like yeah, if nobody’s ever explained what women have historically faced to you, feminism and girl power are especially strange concepts to confront.
Maybe having a more positive masculinity movement actually wouldn’t be a bad idea just to help people that are feeling a little lost and prevent them from finding “answers” in the wrong places(?)
I think the lesson here is that even if white males are “in power” on a societal level, on an individual level it still benefits everyone to have a safe space, even straight white men. We need a men’s support group. I would argue we even need a “white support group”. There are unique challenges and difficulties that come with being white. Not to the same degree as being black, for example, but they’re a totally different set of issues.
Toxic masculinity is the reason for that as well. Being the victim is seen as being less masculine, which is seen as worthy of ridicule.
Toxic masculinity hurts everyone.
When men do bad things: “this is toxic masculinity”
When women do bad things: “this is also toxic masculinity”
When men don’t get the support they need. Or are ridiculed for feeling emotions other than anger. And don’t feel they can cry without being judged.
Women can absolutely be abusers. That’s called shitty people and has nothing to do with masculinity, toxic or otherwise.
Most men cry in front of a woman exactly once.
That’s not toxic masculinity. It’s toxic femininity and NO ONE is addressing it in a systemic way.
In feminist theory “masculinity” and “femininity” don’t mean “what men do” and “what women do” but value systems floating through society affecting people.
So in that sense yes woman can exhibit toxic masculinity, if they reinforce those shitty norms. Likewise men can exhibit toxic femininity… say, comparatively harmless example, by discouraging a tomboy from skating.
It’s just one of those gazillions of instances where feminist terminology sucks absolutely donkeyballs because you need to read theory to understand it, which practically noone who calls themselves a feminist actually does, it’s all vibes and signals very little analysis they abuse those terms just like the rest of the population. The rest of the population at least has an excuse, they’re using the dictionary definition.
In this particular instance, “toxic (male) gender norm” would be much better.
so yes men do get laughed at for this kinda stuff, by men and also by women. when men do it, i noticed it doesn’t bother me as much truthfully.
i’ll say when i’m in more women-friendly, radical feminist spaces (journals, magazines, irl events) there really isn’t this negativity around. something like the scumm manifesto does say stuff that can be hurtful or seem hateful (i’d agree it is hateful; i’d also agree it’s completely justified and rational given the circumstances) and honestly so much of the tension seems to me to be due to the online nature of this stuff.
are there women-only spaces where a bunch of negative things about men are said? obviously, and i can’t for the life of me figure out why it’s held to a different standard than other groups outside of the patriarchy being the explanation.
i think treating and seeing women as equal is accepting there are women who have awful takes. women as a group will be like many other groups, they might appear homogeneous and their’s a wealth of differences between them.
i’m ok believing some men are toxic, as am i for some women, what i don’t do is share that opinion with others if the circumstances aren’t appropriate. i think that’s where “think before you act” or “think before you talk” comes in.
The leaders of the movement are publishing this shit though. It’s not fringe if it’s the leaders of the movement.
Heterosexual intercourse is the pure, formalized expression of contempt for women’s bodies.
Any man will follow any feminine looking thing down any dark alley; I’ve always wanted to see a man beaten to a shit bloody pulp with a high-heeled shoe stuffed up his mouth, sort of the pig with the apple; it would be good to put him on a serving plate but you’d need good silver.
That’s Andrea Dworkin for you. Even though she’s dead, her followers still run the show.
yeah, think my response was responding to something non-existent (like i made up a take to argue against), appreciate your comment. one needs to take the complaints and grievances seriously if they wanna understand or have a meaningful affect.
Well, the male domestic abuse victim is probably laughed at, because he is the strong powerful man and should therefore not be able to get abused by the weak woman. The same for male rape victims: man like sex and always want sex and therefore they can’t be raped, because they like it. These stereotypes are a problem and feminism is trying to get rid of them. It will take some time to redefine the societal picture of man and woman.
These stereotypes are a problem and feminism is trying to get rid of them.
Are they though? I’ve never seen any evidence of feminists reining in their fellow feminists
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https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/apr/15/gender.politicsphilosophyandsociety
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https://scholarship.law.cornell.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2552&context=clr;We
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https://www.feministcurrent.com/2021/07/26/radical-feminism-has-a-humanity-problem/
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https://jacobin.com/2017/07/radical-feminism-second-wave-class
I’m not saying this is representative, mind you, only that criticism of feminists by other feminists (notably for employing damaging stereotypes) is out there if you actually look for it.
Can you name the actual feminist(s) which you’re referring to…? You won’t really see feminists doing feminist things if you’re not going out of your way to participate in the feminist movement. I’m pretty sure most people’s entire idea of “feminism” is youtube videos from 2015 complaining about dumb misandrists with colorful hair screaming “kill all men” or something.
Feminism isn’t about “men bad, women good” or “women need to be more privileged in society”, it’s about minimizing or erasing gender norms/stereotypes, even if those perceptions sometimes benefit women. Gender/sexual equality is the point of the movement, it recognizes that women are favoured by the judicial system when it comes to cases related to violence & domestic disputes, and that society thinks that men should be big and strong and scary and that society shuns men who face problems in life or are wronged as “weak”, and that young people (especially men) are lonely, and that women are unlikely to receive as much benefit from the same labour (e.g., promotions/raises, perceived expertise) compared to men, etc. etc.
And the movement recognizes that those problems are often mostly or entirely caused by fucked up perceptions about gender that our society has built over an inconceivably large amount of time, and that we still apply to the modern day, that women are weak and beautiful and pure and dumb and dependent and subordinate to men and nurturing and need to be protected, and that men are strong and smart and do all the dirty work and independent and providing and commanding and need to protect women. That women and men are treated certain ways in some areas and get certain privileges over the other because of the way society views the concept of/separation between “man” and “woman” (and pushes against the view or “neither man or woman”) in the first place.
Too many people think, because of few reactionary misandrists being significantly more publicized than actual gender equality movements, that feminism is about “we need to make men 2nd-class citizens”, rather than “these artificially constructed and inaccurate ideas of differences between men and women are harmful to society and cause us to force certain perceptions on people, making us be biased against a certain gender in many areas or shun those of a certain gender who don’t fit into certain stereotypes”. Also some people don’t really care either way and want to be mad, but that happens with everything.
Another thing that is always spammed every time anything related to women’s struggles or just general women’s rights (even if feminism isn’t mentioned) is “but what about men?” which is ignoring the entire point… we’re in a collective struggle, we should talk about all of our issues, even gender issues, and not be out to try to 1-up each other every time one of the “other” groups have their issues talked about. And we can recognize that women often face issues men don’t face as much, and men often face issues that women don’t face as much, and we can recognize that often times the difference of magnitude of struggles based on gender is caused by the fact that society treats different genders so irrationally different in the first place.
Some want to throw away the concept of “feminism”/“gender & sexuality equality” and instead exclusively use “egalitarianism”, but I think that’s kind of just trying to detract from the issue and is as absurd as saying we shouldn’t think about “racial equality” as its own concept either, and saying “women have all the rights men have, but they’re just greedy and want more” is as dumb as saying “racial minorities have all the rights that white people have, but they’re just greedy and want more”. Also because of this exact idea the term “egalitarianism” is generally associated with libertarians which is just… eugh… no thanks.
BTW this is tangential to the topic, but when people say “toxic masculinity” or “patriarchy” the idea isn’t that it’s mens fault and everything would be so much better if they just drop their toxicity and masculinity. It’s more generally referring to how historically, in societies where men were at the “top” of the social hierarchy, created were the perceptions that men are supposed to be a certain way, and that women are supposed to be a certain other way, based entirely around the most idolized men of the times having certain characteristics/powers that dictated their place in society. These ideas still, for the most part, persist to the modern day in an altered & tamer form, and they still affect how all of us who are raised in these cultures perceive gender identity. That’s why it’s said men are victims of “patriarchy” or “toxic masculinity” too, because modern gender perceptions/issues are tightly tied to where they originated, and those societal/governmental structures are still “here” in a very warped but slightly recognizable form.
I’m pretty sure most people’s entire idea of “feminism” is youtube videos from 2015 complaining about dumb misandrists with colorful hair screaming “kill all men” or something.
But that IS part of feminism. Who is putting these women in check? Serious question. Link me to some of these good feminists please.
Too many people think, because of few reactionary misandrists being significantly more publicized than actual gender equality movements, that feminism is about “we need to make men 2nd-class citizens”
I just want to quickly clarify that’s not what I think. I don’t think feminism as a whole is about putting men down, and that’s a hilariously egocentric viewpoint to have anyway…yeah this whole giant movement that says it’s about women is actually about men…come on bro get over yourself lol.
I think feminism is about raising women up. It just doesn’t have any mechanism to (1) say “hey we did it! We achieved equality in this area!” (college admissions for example), (2) strive for equality in areas where men are at a disadvantage (dirty, dangerous, physical jobs for example), or (3) address societal problems that uniquely affect men (lack of role models, for example).
we’re in a collective struggle, we should talk about all of our issues,
This is the WHOLE POINT of “what about men?” Feminists do not care about male struggles. And I’m not talking about the ivory tower theorists that no one listens to. I don’t know what they think because it doesn’t matter. What matters is what everyday feminists think and do and say.
If feminism is about equality, then for the love of God please help men a little. We’re really fucking struggling and could use a hand here. Not asking for a lot, just a little acknowledgement and appreciation and maybe a policy initiative here and there.
But that IS part of feminism. Who is putting these women in check? Serious question. Link me to some of these good feminists please.
The entirety of the internet is putting people in check. You don’t even have to go to specific feminists to see it, any times a misandrist freak-out goes viral there’s immediately a visceral reaction to it by even the “woke” parts of the internet and a bunch of feminists being like “yea s/he’s not one of us”. Anyone can call themselves anything, and every movement has radicals, but every feminist knows that those radicals are a joke and just easy bait for anti-feminist rhetoric.
yeah this whole giant movement that says it’s about women is actually about men…come on bro get over yourself lol. I think feminism is about raising women up.
Jesus christ you really did filter out literally everything you just read didn’t you… every time “feminism” comes up it’s literally feminists telling you “it’s not just about women” but people like you just completely ignore it. What entity exactly is “this whole giant movement” that’s saying it’s about women? I explained where the gendered terms of the movement come from, the historical reasons why they’re called that, so I would hope you’re not just taking the name at face value. There is literally not a singular feminist that says “yeah this movement isn’t about men at all, we only care about women”. Many issues in this world primarily screw over women though, and those are often talked about, which I assume is where your confusion comes from.
It just doesn’t have any mechanism to (1) say “hey we did it! We achieved equality in this area!” (college admissions for example)
What is this even supposed to mean? You think feminists aren’t happy and don’t take pride in when a goal like more equal treatment in something based on gender or sexual orientation is achieved? That literally proves that you don’t actually pay attention to anything that has to do with the movement and you’re just making rage up lol.
(2) strive for equality in areas where men are at a disadvantage (dirty, dangerous, physical jobs for example)
Except they do. Literally one of the most important parts of the feminist movement is encouraging people to pursue career choices that societal perceptions discourage a specific gender from doing. Especially when it comes to dirty, dangerous, physical jobs. Do you know just how much women working trades/physical labour is talked about in various feminist groups? It is one of the primary workplace issues, generally women are completely bullied out of working such jobs and are seen as “incompetent” when it comes to professions like welders, mechanics, electricians, or any other form of physically demanding jobs. I have witnessed this firsthand, as well as my former best friend literally being a welder and constantly describing how awful women are treated by the people working these jobs, how they’re constantly sexualized/objectified and harassed, how they have to always be afraid in their own workplace because of this. This is one of the most important things feminists are actively working on, equalizing trades and making it so both men and women are treated fairly and well. Feminism is also often intertwined with worker’s rights, guarantees to employees, safety in the workplace, etc. which fits into this excelently.
address societal problems that uniquely affect men (lack of role models, for example).
What? I’m mentally facepalming right now… feminists are constantly encouraging positive role models, educators, leaders, etc. for everyone (including men), what are you on about? Additionally one of feminists’ primary concerns is access to healthcare, and especially relating to feminists’ concerns is mental healthcare, something that affects men a lot. They recognize what causes many of these problems, and they work to fix them. Feminists fight against negative influences like Jordan Peterson and Andrew Tate.
Many role models for men were/are feminists, and feminists actively are engaged in propping boys up and encouraging positive traits in them (as well as girls). I think one everyone can relate to hearing is Mr. Rogers.
This is the WHOLE POINT of “what about men?”
It really is not. The point is to say “women’s issues don’t matter because men also have other issues”. It is a way to detract from any discussion about women’s rights, to try to take over the conversation to say “we have it worse in some different way”, to try to emphasize the idea they have that women are privileged and men are the ones that really have it bad. It is never done to add to the conversation, but to change the conversation.
Feminists do not care about male struggles. And I’m not talking about the ivory tower theorists that no one listens to. I don’t know what they think because it doesn’t matter. What matters is what everyday feminists think and do and say.
You are straight up just constructing a strawman and beating it to death. What feminist discussions have you attended? Any at all?
If feminism is about equality, then for the love of God please help men a little.
That is quite literally what we are trying to do. But people like you refuse it and try to turn it around as a way to disparage other groups and diminish discussions about women’s struggles and gender in society. And you make strawmen constructed of some 2014 internet perception of a “feminist” pretending feminists actually believe in that, meanwhile “men’s rights activists”/anti-feminists are represented by literal far-right sex traffickers (as opposed to the many positive role models who are feminists). Like can you name any popular, modern-day, prominent-among-feminist influencers that are even a small fraction of the absurdity of that? Feminist role model influencers are random often apolitical chill people like Technoblade
lmao.Yeah I’m just gonna call you a liar. All you’re doing is saying “oh yeah we’re totally working on that” but that’s just blatant bullshit. Becaaaaause
It is never done to add to the conversation, but to change the conversation.
You fucking shut the conversation down any time it goes there. You define men’s issues as being impossible to discuss. You seriously believe that never once in the history of any of these discussions, somone saying “but what about men” has wanted to add to the conversation rather than derail it?
Show me the feminist initiatives to get women into trades. Show me the feminists working to get more male teachers. Show me the feminists funding scholarships for men. Because not only have I never seen anything like that, I’ve never even HEARD of anything like that. And I’ve gone looking.
Okay, you’re just copping out of the conversation and ignoring pretty much all the points you don’t like but I’ll give you what you want.
You fucking shut the conversation down any time it goes there. You define men’s issues as being impossible to discuss.
No, we just have the reaction anyone would have if we were talking about problems we face and someone else was like “yeah but what about these other issues I face”. You’re honestly telling me you think someone who just says “oh yeah your broken leg is bad but what about my broken arm? that’s bad, if not worse, and i’m tired of people talking about your leg when nobody is talking about my arm” is doing so in good faith? When do feminists shut down such conversations about men? Why do you insist on just making shit up about feminists saying not to discuss men’s issues?
You seriously believe that never once in the history of any of these discussions, somone saying “but what about men” has wanted to add to the conversation rather than derail it?
I don’t know every person in history who has done that, but when you respond to literally anything discussing women’s struggles with “but what about men who have X bad” it is more often then not a quite obvious attempt at diminishing the issue at hand. There are people who say “I’m not a woman but here’s my perspective as a man who’s faced similar issues”, who are adding to the conversation, and then there are people who instead take the opportunity to try to find some way to frame the problem as not as serious as men’s problems, and then often devolve it into blaming women for men’s problems and try to say “well actually women are privileged” to completely avoid the point. Feminists do not get in the way of issues affecting men and are usually the primary proponents of solving problems faced regardless of gender – most are not ones to go into discussions about how young men are facing loneliness to say “but loneliness isn’t just a men’s thing, women also face record high loneliness! and in fact women have it worse because nobody acknowledges their loneliness epidemic!” yet this is exactly the reaction you see droves of which are highly popular on social media every time women’s issues get brought up.
Show me the feminist initiatives to get women into trades.
Yeah this is how I know you’re talking out of your ass. How did you go through the entire 2000s-2010s without seeing all the initiatives to get women to work in traditionally male work places? Regardless I’ll give you what you want, talking about the issues faced with women not working in traditionally male-dominated workplaces and encouraging women in trades and many others:
“The U.S. Department of Labor’s Women’s Bureau has awarded $7.4 million in active grant funding to help recruit, train and retain more women in quality pre-apprenticeship and registered apprenticeship programs as well as nontraditional occupations.”
https://www.usaid.gov/engendering-industries/gender-equality-best-practices-framework
Show me the feminists working to get more male teachers.
Literally this entire Reddit thread is full of feminists discussing exactly that, and quite clearly having a higher amount of male educators than we currently have is pretty important to them, with the reception to the topic being overwhelmingly positive and linking many resources on the matter: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskFeminists/comments/1776kfn/what_is_the_impact_of_the_lack_of_male_teachers/
Show me the feminists funding scholarships for men.
The origin in scholarships for historically disadvantaged groups is based in the fact that they faced many significant barriers in the past to attending college, and these scholarships were crucial to getting e.g. women, black people, to attend. Your question is a bit like asking about racial minority rights movements creating scholarships for white people. That being said there are a TON of scholarships for men (and for specific groups of whites), here’s a list:
https://scholarships360.org/scholarships/scholarships-for-men/
https://www.aamn.org/scholarships
Plus you have things like this which are supported by people who think like you: https://www.forbes.com/sites/kimelsesser/2022/04/13/womens-scholarships-and-awards-eliminated-to-be-fair-to-men/?sh=519c6bd87fe2
Your point is assuming that men have disproportionately higher of a financial burden to going to college than women. Which they don’t. In fact, women have significantly more student loan debt than men and are generally less financially independent in our society so it’s the other way around. Men’s college problems are more skewed towards the various other social issues that feminists work to improve, i.e. access to mental health services (which often disproportionally affects men) and harmful gender norms, like once again causes men to be perceived as not fit for child-related activities (like teaching). The result is that, in general, scholarships are a lot more effective for women than for men, so there is more initiative for scholarships for women, while college health resources are more directed towards men.
In general feminists aren’t very pro-gender based scholarship to begin with, although there are a lot of scholarships for both women and men (for example MenTeach which is made specifically to get men teaching) which are supported by many feminists.
Also things like this are mostly just an American thing, scholarships like that are generally rare outside of the US… but in the US, Feminists are a LOT more concerned with completely reforming the broken education system that requires you to have to have scholarships to go in the first place.
Because not only have I never seen anything like that, I’ve never even HEARD of anything like that. And I’ve gone looking.
Lmao you obviously haven’t. I was able to find all of these with actual seconds of searching. You are a liar.
Every single day I see a new reason why I am glad I pulled my daughter out of the hell that is public middle school and put her into online school.
She told me yesterday that boys got into fights in the hallways almost every week. There were definitely fights between kids my middle school, but usually not on school grounds, almost never during the school day, and not constantly for sure. This isn’t some low income, underfunded urban school, we’re in a small city in Indiana.
On top of that, the couple of friends my daughter had in that school vaped and smoked weed. They’re between 12 and 13. Sure, I tried a cigarette at 13, but one cigarette. I didn’t smoke weed until I was a junior in high school.
What the fuck is happening in our schools?
I just wish more parents, especially of girls, had the option to do what we did. We’re lucky that we can survive (just barely) on a single income.
Damn, only a fight every week? They’re daily at my kids’ middle school. And not just the boys.
Just be careful that you don’t “over protect” your daughter, and she ends up going off to college, and now with vastly more freedom and a spectrum of influence needs to “keep it on the rails”. I have seen home school kids lose their shit when that time comes, as they never had to negotiate the gradual increase in both that level of freedom and influences on the way. I think of it much like the Amish Rumspringa (“rite of passage”), in that they go from a sheltered version of the world, to a much wider open one.
Every person I know who was home schooled is socially incompatible and I hope you reconsider your decision for your daughter’s sake. Public school is hell but so is the rest of life after it, you can’t shelter her forever.
And boys fight, it’s part of growing up. I don’t know how you went to a public school and fighting wasn’t common.
Again, online schooling is not the same as homeschooling and she has more friends now than when she was in public school.
Why the fuck would I reconsider my decision to help stop her from being suicidal?
Well that context is kind of important
The context of her mental health may be important, but people not knowing the difference between homeschooling and online schooling is not my fault. Homeschooling is where the parent is the teacher. Online schooling is taught by real licensed teachers. She has classes every day via live video meetings. She has the same textbooks kids in public schools have because they all have Pierson textbooks due to Pierson’s monopoly. It is a state school, not a private school so there is no tuition and it has to adhere to state education standards.
None of that is true about homeschooling.
And I’m sorry, but I am not going to admit culpability for people not knowing the difference between the two and just assuming they’re the same.
Still not developing real social skills in online classes. Social skills is by far the most important thing kids learn during their time in school, the curriculum being good is a bonus.
I know what online school is and you’re still at home. Homeschooling.
As I have already said at least twice now, she has more friends now than she did when she was in public school. She has more self-esteem now that she is no longer in public school. She is asking to go to things like events at the teen room at the library and make friends when she wasn’t even willing to join afterschool clubs about things that interested her.
Maybe read some of my other comments? I go into great detail about this.
You do not know my daughter. You do not know her situation. You do not know what you are talking about. I can see you’re trying to castigate me for being an abusive parent, so just come out and say it.
You’re very dramatic.
I also blame CBC and other supposedly legit sources for giving this fuck air time and even asking him about the Israel/Palestine war as if his opinion matters.
Also so called journalists like this who remove all responsibility from Tate for being a rapist piece of shit
When did the CBC give this guy air time? I looked for it, and all I found are articles critical of him by the CBC.
Perhaps the user meant BBC. Someone from there did an interview
I still choose to blame the Canadians
They’ve been too nice for too long, something’s fishy, I’m keeping an eye on them
Never ask a Canadian why they no longer have an Airborne Regiment.
i thought it’s cuz their aero industry died?
Nah its known as the Somali incident.
This shit stain can be both.
I’ve always felt like these things are cyclical in a way - just in that people are constantly rebelling against the last generation.
When I went to high school in the early 2010s there was this huge movement of like… positivity and sunshine and wellness and feminism and good times for all. Bob Ross was on everyone’s mind and Pharrell’s “Happy” blasted on the stereo, people wore really bright and mismatched and often gaudy outfits.
This was seemingly “in response” to that mid 2000s emo/grunge/depressed aesthetic which was very dark and moody. And now, in response to that 2010s positivity we seem to get this really jaded, “actually, feminism sucks and becoming a ‘trad catholic’ is chic” movement.
It’s annoying, and I’m sure we’ll see an opposite shift again in 5 years.
Jeez, you must have gone to high school in a rich neighborhood
For most people 2009-2015 or so was an impoverished hellhole. Everyone was recovering from the great recession. Societal outlook was fucking BLEAK.
I did not. You can have poor economic conditions but still a cultural zeitgeist focused more on positivity, inclusion, and “wellness” than usual
Not saying it’s impossible, but I’ve never seen it
If it helps you, imagine the following - as I believe your personal experience may be clouding things slightly .
Directly prior to the very “Emo / goth / punk / skinny jeans” time of around 2004-2010 was the early 00s. Now, in some ways the early 00s were very bleak. It was post 9/11, the economy did not like the possibility of a major war, and simply put many people genuinely thought it was some end of an empire time where further attacks on US soil might become common. At the same time, it was still the era of boy bands, brightly colored and flashy technology and clothing, blonde hair, and going to the mall + beach with your friends. Bad things were occurring, but the cultural zeitgeist for that age demographic was still in a “bright and positive” phase
How many schools did you sample to come to this conclusion?
I’ve always felt like these things are cyclical in a way - just in that people are constantly rebelling against the last generation.
That implies that it’s somehow a natural cycle, but this is dangerous because it ignores and “Laissez-faire” the fascist propaganda that is blasted deliberately into our global society. It started with fox news and talk radio where funding from fascists helped spread “misinformation” and now continues on social media, where the same funding takes place. The strategy behind this funding is that fascism works when socio-economic circumstances get worse and worse, and allow further exploitation.
Additionally, controversial viewpoints are rewarded by more engagement and clicks - and so become part of the strategy of AI algorithms.
You should absolutely not assume it gets better on it’s own, without enough people pushing back against it and without the rules of how the system is allowed to work being changed. Gen Z is just as susceptible to propaganda as Boomers.
Yeah, but I think a lot of it is just high schoolers trying to be different than the last generation. I don’t think that Fox News was in charge of people getting really into Bob Ross 10 years ago.
I respect your thoughts on this as they’re very fleshed out and sound like something that could be accurate, but the big problem i see is that your experiences in high-school are extremely biased by your age and limited experience with the wider world at the time. I’m not singling you out btw, because my saying this is based on my own self-reflection of earlier years. Before you are fully integrated into society and also, your frontal lobe is literally still developing until you’re in your mid twenties, it is hard to assess the state of things imo. There is definitely a capitalist/media centered cultural zeitgeist that pervades everything, and I’m sure has profound effects, I just can’t buy being able to fully grasp it in highschool or earlier. I look forward to your reply.
I hear you, I just want to reiterate that the discussion at hand (from the OP down) is specifically talking about that specific high school age bracket, which is why I’m invoking it so much. Culture is obviously going to be different between age groups, and a lot of that difference is imo a direct “opposition” of that previous group.
Just very anecdotally, I remember seeing a goofy little post, very clearly made by a gen-z individual, stereotyping millennials as this kind of chronically depressed, down on themselves type. Which I thought was kind of funny. Even something like the “trend” of “being depressed” the next generation will recognize and (consciously or subconsciously) change their own behavior based on it.
I don’t think there’s too much to say. I am largely just spitballing on a pattern I’ve noticed at least with fashion and “aesthetics” in that age group over time.
Appreciate the conversation as well. I’m new on the site and it really is like night and day compared to trying to have a polite little conversation on Reddit.
From my experience, men who follow feminism get pats on the back while men who ignore feminism get laid.
The issue isn’t the men. It’s what women value. Men just do what they think will get them laid.
It’s statistically true that (and yes this is a bit different but still relevant) women are generally not willing to be in relationships with Conservatives so idk
