I’ll give you some context: I (22M) was raised to believe that heterosexuality and its associated biological drives naturally resulted in paternalistic relationship structures where the man has absolute power and the woman is his willing subject. This dynamic was seen as natural and desirable as long as the man led in good faith. As such, men were active partners who showed initiative, while women were passive partners that responded to a man’s advances. Male passivity and female initiative were viewed as unnatural desires.
My tendency to treat others with soft-spoken gentleness and careful consideration instead of stern authority and quick decisiveness made me originally believe that I was incompatible with women despite being attracted to them. I also viscerally hated the idea of subjugating or controlling others because it felt evil. I wanted to work with a partner, not above her.
Additionally, I had fantasies about women initiating affection, taking active roles during intimacy, and expressing a primal hunger to take the reins, fantasies which I believed were impossible to fulfill because my upbringing taught me that female initiative fundamentally did not exist anywhere except in niche fetishes (e.g. femdom), and male passivity would be a turn-off.
The dynamic I find appealing is one in which a partner and I are excited to pursue each other’s pleasure by mutually initiating affection/intimacy and taking turns swapping between active and passive roles. My worry is that there aren’t a lot of women who have that drive to pursue their partners in an assertive manner. What is that impression based on, you ask? Not much, except the “values” I was raised with and the trashy adult sites that I’ve looked at over the years.
It may be worth noting that I hate BDSM and power exchange dynamics where one partner is subject to another’s command and absolute control. What I crave is a consensual, passionate, and attentive lead over someone’s pleasure from a place of love, not domination, and for that initiative to change fluidly between partners.
Is this something with a substantial presence in the real world? How might I find partners who see intimacy in this way as opposed to the “lay down and take it” model? Usually the people on Lemmy have a lot of decently helpful and non-regressive takes, so I’m interested in the opinions here. Thanks!
(And yes, I know that there’s a decent chance that I sound completely stupid and embarrassing here because I fell for a multi-generational psyop used to consolidate political power in the hands of evil men, but think about how many millions of people there are who wouldn’t even think to question this programming… Also, I don’t plan on pursuing a relationship yet because I’m still deconstructing the mountain of lies that I was fed and building my self-confidence, but I think I can make it there eventually.)
Yes, I’ve dated some. And not having to be assertive 100% of the time is the best, even outside of sex. Relationships should be a balanced thing, where both people take turns doing things. It’s very refreshing, but doesn’t seem to happen very often.
My soon to be wife 27f loves taking charge and it is so fucking sexy. We split it somewhat evenly and it might change during the act.
I can answer this without even bringing you an essay based on vast personal experience. Get this: you exist, and your circumstances and experiences are hardly uncommon. How could it be anything but highly likely that women who also don’t conform to those views also exist?
I really like this argument because the only response I can come up with is “I’m uniquely kinky/unlucky compared to everyone else” based on no real evidence
Maybe… maybe I’m not the main character…
Rofl his eyes uncovered!
I’m rooting for you. I had the good fortune of chancing on some sexually assertive woman early on, and it kind of led me accidentally to your own realization: that I want to be desired and subjected to a lustful gaze in addition to doing the same.
Although it sounds like some flavour of gentle bdsm would probably suit you. That community is also much better at communicating their specific desires, like you have shown here. So even if you aren’t into dominance play, you are probably into some control swapping fantasies.
And by “fantasies” I don’t mean some elaborate play-acted scenario, but specifically what you described, discussed ahead of time, and then played out for mutual pleasure.
Shaka, when the walls fell.
The truth has no path, it’s all chaos
Woah, calm down there
you’re young, ladies your age can be crazy about sex as much as guys
there’s every experience out there if you’re willing to look beyond someone who isn’t as pretty as the other one.
The question has already been answered, but I wanna let you in on a little secret; we are all dumb. Even the ones that you think are the smartest among us. They fumble some silly things all the time, just like you and me. Embrace the stupid, I say. Ask questions and be dumb! :)
Speaking of…anyone wanna tell a dumdum how to do spoiler text on here?
You’re right on the money. I’m pretty bright, but I make mistakes. Just yesterday I misunderstood somebody using the term “binary kids” (in reference to computer binary) here on Lemmy. I had to laugh about it. We’re all human, and it’s okay to make mistakes and learn from them.
As to spoiler tags, they’re kind of tricky. I have to test them with a preview whenever I use them.
Here’s an example of how to use them. If you copy/paste what I wrote below and remove the backslash at the start (which I’m only using to inactivate the tag, for demonstration purposes), you’ll have a template for making your own spoiler.
/ ::: spoiler spoiler
spoiler text
:::So if you type:
/ ::: spoiler And the big reveal is
An annoying way to mark-up text
:::It becomes:
And the big reveal is
An annoying way to mark-up text
One last note - keep the line spacing the way it is. If you don’t put the three parts on three different lines, the spoiler tag won’t work.
spoiler
like so?
Thanks for taking the time! Both to use this knewfound knowledge as well as to reward a snafu with a gaff; I will share something mildly embarrassing.
spoiler.
I got dog piled the other week when I revealed that I thought New England was a US state. All the homies got their dunks in and I giggled along, albeit red in the face and clearly begrudgingly lol. I’ve always been bad with places and names. Oh well :P
Edit: not quite “like so”, it seems. Let’s see if I can figure this out…
Edit 2: finally got it lol
Wait til you find out about hexadecimal kids!
I grew up with the opposite expectations (that a grown woman’s sexuality should be a take charge sort of desire) and it took me a ridiculously long time to come to terms with what I like in the bedroom.
But in terms of daily life? No. Wanting a partner, a true partner who doesn’t expect you to make all the decisions is 100% normal, average, and healthy attitude. Wanting someone to initiate intimacy half the time is also not at all outrageous, nor do I think it unusual.
I always think that just because something turns you on, doesn’t make it a good way to run your life and certainly not the world! Those are different questions entirely.
ETA one of the things that helped me understand my own desires was realizing that submissive != passive, not at all. Even within the subset of women who might prefer you to lead in bed, there are more who will be active participants who want to please you, and in the process, get off themselves, yes? I think that passivity comes from fear.
And even more people are “vanilla”, as it’s called, and exactly like your fantasy above, into sex without power play, fun and loving sex.
If you are interested in unlearning paternalistic relationship structures I would recommend you read / listen to Dan Savage. He does a weekly sex and relationship columns since the 1990 and a podcast since the early 2000s so he has been doing this a long time so has a great backlog of material most of which is free. Especially since you are young and want some outsider perspective.
He talks often about alternative sexualities (queer, kink, etc.) and relationships structures (polyamory, open relationships, female led relationships, etc.) which might not be applicable to you. I know you mentioned that you are NOT into BDSM but understanding how common and acceptable doing something like that it makes what you are asking into context. Its the same tools around consent and communication about needs regardless of what you are doing. Listening and understanding the extreme level sexual acts will put your asks into perspective. Also hearing about the variety of ways organize their relationships and sex lives will really deprogram you from the single view of gender and sexuality you were brought up in.
Lol BDSM is not really common or acceptable. Nor should it be. It is amazing how far extremists have attempted to push the goalpost in this regard.
We already learned this in the 80’s when psychologists were pushing primal therapy. Abusing yourself or others just leads to wanting to abuse more. A self-fulfilling prophecy if you will.
I am all for sex positivity, but pretending it is okay to hurt yourself or others because “consent” is just stupid. It is like the whole choking people during sex. Brain damage is the opposite of sexy.
Control in this regard is likewise the polar opposite of love and caring in a relationship. Society would be better off without these sick cunts pushing their ideology in movies and print.
Everything else you said is on point though
According to The Journal of Sex Research in 2017 :
Paraphilic sexual interests are defined as unusual or anomalous, but their actual occurrence in nonclinical samples is still unknown. This study looked at desire for and experience of paraphilic behaviors in a sample of adult men and women in the general population. A secondary goal was to compare the results of two survey modes—traditional landline telephone versus online. A total of 1,040 persons classified according to age, gender, education, ethnic background, religious beliefs, area of residency, and corresponding to the norm for the province of Quebec were interviewed. Nearly half of this sample expressed interest in at least one paraphilic category, and approximately one-third had had experience with such a practice at least once. Voyeurism, fetishism, frotteurism, and masochism interested both male and female respondents at levels above what is usually considered to be statistically unusual (15.9%). Interestingly, levels of interest in fetishism and masochism were not significantly different for men and women. Masochism was significantly linked with higher satisfaction with one’s own sexual life. As expected, the online mode generated more acknowledgment of paraphilic interest than the telephone mode. These results call into question the current definition of normal (normophilic) versus anomalous (paraphilic) sexual behaviors. (Emphasis mine)
I would say that nearly half would be common enough. Ignore a common desires just leads repression, shame and for people to seek out these desires in more dangerous locations and situations usually without consent. Those who are honest about what they want get to do this with willing partners in specifically time constrained way. This is not controlling anyone outside those situations or pretending that God says all women are submissive to men.
I would also like mention that most kink and BDSM books by professions and those in the scene will discourage the use of choking by anyone in all situations. They will go into exquisite details about to safely flog a man safe and then say how choking is dangerous and shouldn’t be done. So don’t say that BDSM is choking because that is generally frowned upon (although this is still debated).
Thinking about BDSM (Sadism and Machosism specifically) as violence is missing the point and thinking about it the wrong context. There a many different ritualized and formalized pain rituals that we practice as a society. Something like a marathon, cross fit, sitting for tattoos are other modern example where people voluntarily go through pain for a set period of time for fun and to see if they can do it. These are all acceptable hobbies where pain is a large portion of why people do it. Not to mention that multitude of religious rituals where someone goes through something difficult or painful in a specific context. Its the sex negativity in the cultural that says if someone may get an erection or wet thinking about this pain where we draw the line.
Thank you for a clinically dry examination of BDSM. First, I am not talking about cosplayers and people who like to be spanked. Second, having met a lot of people into BDSM it is not healthy and detached acts like you describe.
What it is mostly is ritualized reenactment of trauma. Orgasm and sexual pleasure is also a extremely strong reinforcement. This leads to an unhealthy feedback loop.
I get it. Edge lords think everything is permissable under the sun. I will admit some curiosity on my part about different and unusual things. Curiosity quickly turned to disgust when I realized the reality of human nature.
Misogynists love power and control and are drawn to BDSM and the amount of unhealthy power dynamics like finding new partners to abuse is very real in the culture as are acts like choking, abuse, and rape.
I think clinically looking at this issue belays the reality and trauma most of its members participate it. Is there safe BDSM between consenting adults? Perhaps but there is much more psychological and physical abuse going on than they are willing to admit
So no, they don’t get to be lumped into all the other sexual expression and get a free ride on the permissable train in my book. Having personally witnessed several people get real fucked up it is not cool.
Communication is the most important thing- I was feeling stuck in this pattern I my relationship of many years, feeling like all I could do was “give” the physical intimacy while my partner “received” it. After some conversation and a couple of false starts, she is doing a wonderful job at taking the initiative more and now it feels like more of a 50/50 thing. My point is, it’s definitely out there but you may need to work with someone to tell them what you want And be patient while your partner is trying something that may be new and unfamiliar.
Some women need very specific physical stimulation to achieve orgasm, and it can be easier to get there if they’re in charge or on top. Everyone is different.
I had fantasies about women initiating affection, taking active roles during intimacy, and expressing a primal hunger to take the reins
In my personal experience, this is pretty much the norm. Women can have just as much sex drive as men, and can express it just as “aggressively”. In every relationship I’ve had, there are times where I’ll initiate, times where she’ll initiate, and times where we’ll both look at each other with a “Yes. Right now.” look. Note that I’ve never been into any BDSM or other “exciting” kink stuff, I’m just talking about initiative and passionately expressing that “I want you” feeling.
Of course, this is a side of women you won’t see until you get with someone that both wants you and feels comfortable enough you to express it.
So long story short: What you’re looking for is pretty much the norm as far as I can tell.
It’s not common, but it should be.
Most women are passive in the bedroom and really struggle not to be.
I think it’s an extension of the social expectation for women to not take initiative and to instead be coveted.
It is very common for women to enjoy and enthusiastically participate in sex. It is less common for them to take the lead and give instructions, especially with a new partner.
I would recommend that first you just find someone who wants to have sex with you, and spend some time exploring each other, figuring out what the other likes and doesnt like.
Then, try to find someone who is also into your particular kink.
Crazy question but have you considered discussing this with your sexual partners?
Okay, okay, you’re not gonna believe this…
I don’t have any.
I never tried to date anyone precisely because I saw the kind of intimacy I wanted as impossible. I always just assumed that anyone I dated would flop over like a dead fish in bed, and that’s just not sexy to me. Up until this point, I believed that my own sexual drives were incompatible with everyone else’s and could only be satisfied through fantasy. Only now am I questioning if this is actually the case.
assumed that anyone I dated would flop over like a dead fish in bed,
Those women do exist. I have dated them. They were raised as you describe yourself being raised, and thought sexual relationships were entirely the man’s job. Sex was something that happened to them, not something they would actively pursue or direct.
Fortunately, the world has all types. You can absolutely find someone who wants the save dynamic you are looking for. Dating is trial-and-error so you’ll have to deal with some duds along the way, but you’ll get there.
Also worth noting that even if someone is a boring lover, if they’re empathetic and they’re into you, then they can get better. It’s all about communication.
Barring obvious psychological baggage.
The good news is that not only is what you want possible — it’s the normal default. That’s how most people who are not “deconstructing a mountain of lies” feel.
Don’t get me wrong, there’s nothing wrong with consensual sexual power play — but the emphasis is on consensual. People choose to be a sub or dom because they have agency in their sexuality, and feel that meets their needs best. A dom who does not respect consent is a rapist not a dom.
So yes again — women with normal sex drives do indeed like sex, and frequently initiate it. This dynamic can even evolve with age — women who hit their peak in their 30s can be positively ravenous about it. It is also normal to not have a high sex drive, or to only experience a sex drive under certain circumstances, such as when in a emotionally safe relationship, or with people you admire intellectually…
I’ll go out on a limb and say that working out your sexual needs, communication, abilities, expectations, etc. is an uncomfortable process for everyone. No amount of preemptive mental work can substitute for the actual experience of having sex and figuring it out that way. It’s a bumpy road, but if you’re doing your best to be respectful and embrace the process, you WILL figure it out.
Based on your posts you are overthinking it. It may sound harsh but it sounds a little bit like some incel-speak with a different twist. Your sexual fanatsies are just that, fantasies. It’s hard to fit in with the crowd but you don’t have to do it often to find someone.
Yeah, that’s kind of why I mentioned at the end that this post might sound kind of ridiculous to outsiders lol.
One of the main reasons it sounds like incel talk is because the bedrock of this insecurity is gender essentialism, which is an idea that was hammered into my head constantly and very painfully when I was young. Now, it’s an incumbent idea that I have to viciously fight against, because if I don’t, I default to the established prescriptivist view: that because I deviate from gender roles, the very core of who I am is wrong and incompatible with society, I’m not masculine enough to find love, and my desires aren’t compatible with women. These were not just made-up ideas either; they were socially reinforced by nearly every person I talked to in the conservative communities I lived in. I was a pariah because I was different, even in my own family.
I had to think about this stuff extensively because it was the only counter I had to their speech. If I unquestioningly accepted what everyone said about me, I would be dead right now. But because I am willing to spend the time to seek outside information and deconstruct the toxic ideologies that surround me in the real world, I am able to build self-confidence in the face of universal rejection. There was no mentor figure or safe haven in my life who I could talk to about these issues, so I ultimately faced a long, arduous journey of de-programming myself by seeking outside information through the Internet.
It might be hard to believe from this post, but I feel 100 times better about myself today than I did a decade ago. Today, I wholeheartedly accept who I am and believe that I am capable and worthy of love. I’m just trying to figure out how to make intimacy work with my unique attraction patterns, and I’m making good progress on that, too!
Let me shorten that for you: You are a bottom, and there is nothing wrong with that.
I disagree. I think OP is a switch and is struggling to find someone who is the same.
But isn’t a bottom purely passive/receptive/compliant though? I also fantasize about assertively directing my partner’s pleasure too and find the idea thrilling. I didn’t talk about it much in the post because that was more expected with traditional gender roles. Wouldn’t the right term for me be “switch” or “versatile”?
The reason I need my partner to be assertive still is because I need the back-and-forth aspect to get excited, like in a “You got me good, now it’s MY TURN!” kind of way.
You’re right. You sound more “switch” than any of the other terms. Although BDSM is the realm that term comes from, being a switch doesn’t require you to do anything you’re not comfortable doing. You don’t have to “power play” to enjoy taking turns initiating sex.
You’re not obligated to take on a label if you don’t believe it represents you. However, knowing the labels can help you find the kind of partner that’s compatible with you.
Switch women are absolutely out there (I’m one of them.) Yet for the longest time, I also internalized the idea that women couldn’t be dominant sex partners. It took my first experience with another woman to make me wake up and learn how to put my own needs first. At your age, I still wasn’t there yet. Although my experiences are only my own, I wouldn’t be surprised if there are other women your age that are still finding themselves sexually.
I wish you the best of luck, OP. It might take time to find the right partner, but you sound like an honest man that wants what’s best for both your partner and yourself. That’s the most important place to start.
Short answer is yes. Don’t let stereotypes or media sway you sexual desires have as much range as there are personalities in this world. Communication for your desires and their desires are key and when you are in a healthy functional relationship there should be a continuous discourse of those desires. From there you will discover if you are ultimately compatible in the long term.
