As Ireland’s $1,500-a-month basic income pilot program for creatives nears its end in February, officials have to answer a simple question: Is it worth it?
With four months to go, they say the answer is yes.
Earlier this month, Ireland’s government announced its 2026 budget, which includes “a successor to the pilot Basic Income Scheme for the Arts to begin next year” among its expenditures.
Ireland is just one of many places experimenting with guaranteed basic income programs, which provide recurring, unrestricted payments to people in a certain demographic. These programs differ from a universal basic income, which would provide payments for an entire population.
This should be the default for anybody in the world. From there on work if you want more. We are social, economical and technologically capable of doing it. Is the 1% the ones preventing it from happening.
0.00004% (billionaires over world population), but yeah. Somebody please tell me why we’re using technology to “make money” instead of progressing the human living standard
In France, the biggest hurdle is our pension system that stifles education, health, and infrastructure spending but even the electorate wants the boomers to earn more when they already get 110% of what working people do. Still the UK’s triple lock might make them more of a gerantocracy in the future. Also note that if you read the official statistics for pensions in Grance the ones by gov workers are counted towards the budget of said institution. So now 90% of new education spending is actually getting to boomers. 1/4 is already for them. 1/3 of military spending too etc
France is a tax haven for millionaires why do you complain ?
Deeply unserious comment. France is one of the countries in which the system is the most distributive and the taxes the highest.
You fail to mention how fair the taxes and redistribution are, and they are ever more unfair every passing year.
It is very swrious and it is a good reason to tax the rich. And they just decide they shouldn’t.
Good news. I hope Canada gets there, but I doubt we will. We are too focused on oil expansion and infrastructure to pay any mind to the ‘dirty poors’ right now.
If we had kept Petro Canada as a crown corporation past the 1980s, we could be funding UBI NOW, but of course, conservatives fucked that up.
conservatives fucked that up
That was a Conservative + Liberal special, both of them selling off our assets all over the place.
We wouldn’t have foolishly gotten rid of the railway in the country if our past governments weren’t so corrupt.
YES please!
I wish, a country would finally decide to give general basic income and would flourish in many new creative companies of all sort fucking all the established big corporations only existing to hinder real progress…
Basic income AND a liveable minimum Wage should be mandatory. Our societies have evolved so that we have more than enough of everything already.
Had this been the US our government and the Far Right would say artists owe them $1500 a month.
Bravo Eire!
The question is: Who or what determines if you are an artist?
Being paid to create art, that’s the literal job description
And it’s not a full UBI, it’s got an assessment as part of it
This is why universal* basic is the proper way. We’re heading toward a world where there will never be enough existing jobs for everyone who wants to work, let alone those who can’t work, and finally the smallest cohort, those who don’t want to “work” at all.
The administrative burden of means testing so many people is absurd. And when you do and they fail then what?
People who are against looking after the unemployed rarely say the quiet part out loud. That they don’t care about homelessness, disease, violent crime, or whatever, since they can isolate themselves away from it. The law works for them, and so does the system, so they’re safe. So let the peasants who refuse to tow the line figure it out on their own.
*universal Took me a minute 😅
Fuck, oops. Swipe typing on Android is a minefield of typos. But it’s so fast one handed.
One day AI will properly fix my typos. Maybe.
I agree with this, but I want to ask a question as this has come up in topic recently in a friend group. Do you not worry that “universal” becomes “stipulated”?
I don’t think there’s a meaningful difference. If you’re a citizen or permanent resident of a country with UBI you should get the UBI if you’re of working age. No exceptions.
It’s not the only progressive policy that’s needed. Certain regulations over the cost of basic services and commodities is essential too. Housing/rent, food, and healthcare prices to name a few need to be controlled or there’s a risk those dependent on the UBI will be priced out of the market. That’s the biggest challenge to making it work, next to of course taxing the wealthy their fair share.
They’ve been saying this for decades and this was the birth of bullshit jobs.
You mean in Ireland?
So far I am unaware of a UBI policy having been appropriately implemented anywhere in the world.
It would be the end of “bullshit jobs” and make employment outside of specialist roles people actually want to do a sellers’ market.
You’ll have to raise the pay, benefits, and other working conditiona until it actually becomes a job people want to do, rather.
Right now there are enough desperate people, particularly immigrants in many countries, willing to do anything. That should be an ethical problem for all of us.
Immigrants probably wouldn’t get the UBI and would still be more likely to take up unwanted jobs, so there would still need to be instruments like minimum wage (or better, guaranteed minimum income) that apply to all people engaged in full time work. The GMI should only be needed in industries with low profits or no profits so these employers can offer attractive and fair wages.
Here’s the prior guidelines. You generally had to show your membership in an art organization and that you made an income selling art. Then they just randomly picked names of those people.
Hmm, a rather random approach, then.
What? How is it random? Having sold your art makes you a professional artist, by definition. Then they sampled at random because it’s a pilot program
How is it random?
Then they sampled at random because it’s a pilot program
Well, I see a connection here.
Then you’re daft.
You have to be a part of an art organisation (as in a governing body that requires paid membership to join), and to have proof of being paid, multiple times, for making art
And yes, in your own words: Then they [sic] sampled at random (emphasis added)
for the initial trial period, also in my own words.
It’s no longer in the trial period. No random samples. Just have to be a member of the governing body (which does take effort and a nominal fee to join)
You do know the definition of Pilot Program, right?
Here it is;
Pilot Program: To test the feasibility of a path of action that is aiming to become more widespread, by choosing a smaller subset of the eligible people and then using the program on only that subset and analysing the results. If results are positive, then the program is approved and becomes widespread, if the results are negative or no change, then the program is not approved
The document linked is about the Pilot Program, the details of the Full Program are not yet known, but it can be presumed that it will be the exact same as the Pilot Program minus the Random Sampling (as the point is to cover everyone that is eligible)
Edit: spelling
You yourself?
Are you using most of your day being creative, or do you have steady employment? You don’t need an authority to determine who is an artist
That would lead to loads of self-proclaimed “artists”.
No, it would lead to loads of self-proclaimed artists. Successful and real are not the same thing
Wishing to be an artist does not make it so. There is a lot of human slop in “arts”.
Here it is guys, found who’s the authority on what is art and what is slop
Everyone is his or her personal authority on what is art and what is slop. That’s what makes art subjective. Which also makes defining who is an artist subjective.
For my PERSONAL perception, quite a lot of what is sold as art is slop. If you consider randomly splattered paint or rusty heaps of steel “art”, fine, that is also your PERSONAL decision.
So you are saying that no single authority can define who is or isn’t an artist because art is personal? I agree.
Feels like this is going to devolve into a bit of an Old Boys Club. As in, only ‘recognised’ artists get the basic income, and who decides who gets recognised? Art organisations, and those will very quickly restrict their membership or else be flooded by anyone who claims to be an artist and can get an AI to spit out some slop and get some moron to buy it.
Then, the government can go to those art organisations and go “Right, no more art critical of the government or we won’t be recognising your organisation for the Basic Income scheme”, thus cutting off the funding for the membership and, driven by the need to eat and survive, said membership will alter their art to be more comfortable to whoever happens to be in charge at the time.
They should just give a basic income to everyone
Shift the zero
It makes sense
You’d reduce so much cost
Which is paid by the government
Which is paid by your taxes
Give your tax money to the people who needs them not the people who decide who needs money
This is basically what happens in Brasil. We have a government funding program for a few decades now. The big names (ie. Friends and family) get up to a million to make their bad movies and the small folk never get approved.
I worked in the ministry of culture. We were petitioning for funding on EU programs to open libraries in small cities (50k EUR) while singers got that from the ministry for a single performance. Not to pay for the stage and lights, that was just the singer.
Every publisher has to send copies of every book to the national archive. There isn’t enough budget to catalogue or correctly store them, so they lay in gigantic warehouses gathering dust and being eaten by mites. It is so bad it is considered hazardous environment so it is super expensive to fix it.
But the famous director gets hundreds of thousands every year to make shitty movies nobody sees, because that one time 20 years ago he did something good.
But the famous director gets hundreds of thousands every year to make shitty movies nobody sees, because that one time 20 years ago he did something good.
To be fair, this is also how it works in Hollywood.
I’ve been struggling for years, living in poverty since I was 18 despite having just about the best education you can have in my field. I’ve made desperate decisions and risky moves to keep a roof over my head all while being spat on by all sorts of people and weathering wave after wave of politically motivated anti-intellectualism and it’s 2AM and I’m exhausted from digging a fucking trench to install pipes for the shitty house in the middle of buttfuck nowhere that I’ve had to move to in order to be able to work from home…
And this piece of news made me cry a little. Even though I don’t live in Ireland.
Cause I know how it is to feel like there’s no way out and to watch how everyone consumes art daily like addicts all while saying artists don’t matter and we should be grateful for the “privilege” we have and yelling “get a real job” anytime you complain.
And that’s my piece. Bring on the logical arguments. I’ve laid out my feelings.
Also, UBI for everyone would be fucking amazing. Why we’re not doing that is beyond me. It’s like “they” think that without a “carrot on a stick” everyone will stop working. If I had a penny for everyone who practically can’t think straight because of how worried they are about basic needs I’d probably save those pennies for my own basic needs. Fear is not a good motivator for workers.
Fear is a good motivator for committing crime. But not for getting a job.
Why we’re not doing that is beyond me. It’s like “they” think that without a “carrot on a stick” everyone will stop working
The people who takes care of your sewage would likely also want to do something else fulfilling. But the difference is that they feel a sense of duty, the sense that those other lazy bastards that get to play music or do ‘nothing’ wont do it. Then they are left with the feeling of either doing something useful for others and get payed, or feeling useless and getting payed. Most people would rather feel useful in a practical sense.
Edit: spelling
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If you expected a comfortable life as an unknown artist without a side hustle, that was naive as hell. Market doesn’t give a fuck about your degree.
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Also, UBI for everyone would be fucking amazing. Why we’re not doing that is beyond me.
You can do it right now. Create a club to share a part of everybody’s income as UBI.
Downvoters, you would have to pay for it anyways with higher taxes. Why not do it voluntarily among those who want it?
This exists already, it’s called mutual aid, I’m participating in it when I can.
The reason why this won’t work on a large scale without a societal shift is the same as why UBI isn’t implemented already. It’s capital leeching off a big share of resources from labor.
If we replace the capitalists with a fair sharing system, we could implement a generous UBI and also your effective net salary would go up.
Or, if you want to go a more reformist route, you can implement a very aggressive progressive taxation scheme (a-la FDR) to force rich people to contribute more. That way once again, we can implement UBI without your taxes going up.
If we replace the capitalists with a fair sharing system, we could implement a generous UBI and also your effective net salary would go up.
Which is essentially communism and a goal too far away.
Or, if you want to go a more reformist route, you can implement a very aggressive progressive taxation scheme (a-la FDR) to force rich people to contribute more.
Why should the rich share with the average person if the average person doesn’t want to share with the poor?
Start with the average person and the rich will join.
Which is essentially communism
No, it’s more like total welfare state socialism. Not yet achieved anywhere, but might happen within our lifetimes in China.
and a goal too far away.
Only because most working-class people think that, with a bit of class conscience is totally within our grasp.
Why should the rich share with the average person if the average person doesn’t want to share with the poor?
Because the average person, world-wide, is struggling to get by and doesn’t have much in terms of extra resources, because the rich are stealing a significant portion of the labor value. Meanwhile the rich (who, again, are stealing the resources from the working person) are spending hundreds of billions of dollars on stupid bullshit that even they don’t really need. It’s pretty clear that we should indeed start with the rich.
Start with the average person and the rich will join.
Lol. No. The rich will never do anything other than short-sighted profiteering unless directly threatened with imprisonment or death. Otherwise they would be joining the mutual aid orgs which already exist almost everywhere.
Because the average person, world-wide
Of course, because the average person in the West is already rich.
So there are the resources for an UBI.
are spending hundreds of billions of dollars on stupid bullshit that even they don’t really need.
Make it $800 billion. That would give each person $100.
It’s pretty clear that we should indeed start with the rich.
It us not. The rich can prevent you from starting if you need them to participate but nobody is preventing you from doing it yourself.
No. The rich will never do anything other than short-sighted profiteering
Even if they do, it’s just $100 more. You don’t need them.
Make it $800 billion. That would give each person $100.
I’m not talking about just taking the bullshit money away. The combined assets of “big” capitalists worldwide is in high-double-digit trillions of dollars. That would be enough for a livable UBI for everyone, for some time at least. Redistributing the rest of the capital more equitably is trickier but also worthwhile.
It us not. The rich can prevent you from starting if you need them to participate but nobody is preventing you from doing it yourself.
As I’ve said, I’m participating in local mutual aid communities when I can.
Even if they do, it’s just $100 more. You don’t need them.
Even $100 is considered an OK monthly salary in some places of the world. But redistributing all the wealth more equitably would mean a lot more than $100.
Stop defending capitalists, they will never appreciate it or give you anything in return.
The combined assets of “big” capitalists worldwide is in high-double-digit trillions of dollars. That would be enough for a livable UBI for everyone, for some time at least.
That doesn’t work. Assets are not recurring income so you can only handout them once.
As I’ve said, I’m participating in local mutual aid communities when I can.
What does prevent it from spreading?
Stop defending capitalists, they will never appreciate it or give you anything in return.
They create the structure. People could already have the assets for UBI if they were structured. We don’t have because groups don’t have the discipline to maintain the structure all the time.
If the group can force the billionaires to hand out the assets then they could also create the assets on their own.
As laudable as a program as this is, it stings a bit being in Ireland, which has essentially become a tax haven for multinational corporations. It is nice to support the arts, but it shouldn’t come off the backs of shadily robbing world governments of billions in tax revenues. The cultural impacts of this have become extremely toxic, and hostile to the arts overall internationally.
It also seems like a strange job program. I’m close with someone who works for a US company that incorporated in Ireland. The company is required to have a number of Irish employees who live in the country. Those employees don’t do anything.
Tax haven country gives artists some money to get by. The worst thing about it is the hypocrisy.
Ireland, which has essentially become a tax haven for multinational corporations
And crappy singers from mid-tier boomer bands.
Won’t somebody PLEASE think of the world governments.
You do realize that it’s mainly the poor people who are suffering when the rich don’t get taxed, right? It’s the governments getting robbed, yes, but that wasn’t the main takeaway from that comment.
Everyone in here crying about artist getting money and trying to make me think it’s a bad thing is summarily dismissed from my mind.
i think the problem is that it is Ireland that does that because Ireland is infamously a big tech tax haven so it makes any policy they make automatically bad because capitalism
The problem is people are crabs in a bucket. Same shit when minimum wages go up, or on a lower community level, when people’s friends do well they get shitty too. People are the worst.
that is correct too.
I want to become an artist and move to Ireland now.
I hope such sentiment on a broad scale doesn’t overwhelm ireland, leading to capitalists saying such a system doesn’t work and nobody ever implementing it again.
UBI has been tried since the 1960s with the results that you describe
Well shite.
Don’t misunderstand, I am for UBI, but historically, it’s been tried over and over, and never heard from again. I suspect the need of the ruling class to watch ants take public transit to perform ritualistic useless “work” is what really drives the economy.
Oh, I did not misunderstand, don’t worry. Still though, shite. And what you’re describing id just another angle on the problem of social construction of value. The thing is though, try a thousand times and it will work once and if people like it, it gets to stay in one form or another. We’ll get there.
A lot of gatekeepers in the comments who seem to love the idea of a UBI, but hate any attempt to test the viability of one.
I think this is a great step towards proving the benefits of a UBI for the greater population. I believe supporting the arts is always a positive endeavour, so using them as the pilot program kills two birds with one stone. I think that randomising who gets to enter the pilot program may allow some people to game the system, but the benefits outweigh the possibility of one schyster scamming a paycheque. The lottery system stops this becoming a bonus for established or famous artists, and supports creatives in all areas.
All in all, this is a good thing, and the people who want “all or nothing” are short sighted.
but hate any attempt to test the viability of one
How many more before people are convince it works? I think this is one of those studies or referendums where the powers-that-be and its supporters keep running the test until they get the one result they want. Besides, with the burgeoning automation, UBI is needed. If not, at least universal basic services could be done instead, where we are provided with housing and utilities for free, if the concern that over-accumulation of capital through free handouts might lead to abuse or crash the economy or some vague similar notions
There’s been lots of studies, it works.
You can’t just do a "study’ of UBI. Every single study attempt I’ve seen looks like: -They have funding from something or another, they do not model the taxation half at all -They end up means testing because they can’t model taxation, so they fixate on those in need exclusively. -They tend to last maybe a year or two. The beneficiaries know this is a limited term benefit and need to make the most of it. -They do not target everyone, so the local market won’t even notice the difference in base earning power. You still have lots of poor people excluded from the study. -They did not just force people into the program, participants had to actively seek out participation.
What the experiments have repeatedly proven is that welfare can work to give motivated poor people a needed reprieve to get their feet on solid ground, which we already knew. We haven’t had an actual “study” of real UBI, just studies on welfare that they say is about UBI. About the only difference from actual welfare programs is that the participants are not audited to try to make sure the benefit shuts off the second they get a job. Which may be a good indicator at least that auditing the benefits could stand to be more lax.
UBI might work, but to date we haven’t actually tried it in any useful way. We have universal income in some places, but it’s generally well short of even basic.
Social Security for seniors is UBI, that’s the biggest study you’ll every find. Also, Alaska gets dividends. I think you’re looking at it very narrowly for some reason.
Alaska is too small a payout. No one could have even basic needs meet there. It faiils the criteria for “basic”.
To receive social security, you can’t earn too much money. You generally have to choose either receive benefits or work. Also your payout depends on your specific pay in. You have to get paid during your younger years to “earn” your social security.
Alaska is too small a payout. No one could have even basic needs meet there. It faiils the criteria for “basic”.
True, but Social Security is big enough to live on.
To receive social security, you can’t earn too much money. You generally have to choose either receive benefits or work. Also your payout depends on your specific pay in. You have to get paid during your younger years to “earn” your social security.
Still based on taxes, they know how to make it work. It’s Basic Income regardless. I’m cool with that as a start.
Still based on taxes, they know how to make it work.
The basic logistics or the least of the open questions.
If every one gets 2k a month, how do prices react? Social security participants are only a subset of participants in the economy.
If everyone’s compensation is equal, guaranteed, and sufficient assuming prices didn’t just screw up, can you still get people doing work like sanitation? Social security is from a mindset that no productive prior is no longer required. It pays more to someone that made 100k a year than someone that made 50k a year, so your get proportional to what you put in.
Has the concept of UBI been around long enough to fulfill your requirements? A 20-year study across a large population would of course be superior, but shorter-length studies with less people are necessary to prove/disprove whether those large scale studies should be funded. Not to mention the ethical implications of forcing someone into a large scale study like that before any results have been shown at all.
I think it’s fine to be skeptical of anyone considering UBI to be “case closed”, but small studies being done before large studies is standard practice. You can’t give that kind of grand scale funding to every hypothesis that pops into someone’s head, so it’s a reasonable way of determining what shows promise and should be looked into more.
It’s less a matter of needing years under its belt and more about paying out an actual basic income to everyone regardless of means testing or work requirements and without an expected end date for participants. We’ve just not seen it done at all.
Why did basic income fell of our radar? And were left with fasism everywhere?
Because wealth loves Fascism, and and has the propaganda power.
For those, like me, that are curious how they decide who’s eligible…
Also:
Selection process
The department expects a high volume of applications and it will not be possible to provide funding to all eligible applicants.
Selection will be a non-competitive process. Once an applicant satisfies the eligibility criteria they will be included in an anonymised random sampling process to determine the pilot participants from the pool of eligible applicants for the BIA Pilot.
Funding for the scheme will allow for approximately 2,000 eligible applicants to participate in the pilot scheme.
So it’s a lottery? WTF.
Lotteries avoid issues with the deciding committee handing these to their friends.
To an extent, it also can provide better data on outcomes. Instead of biasing for the most motivated, it includes a wider pool, so of whom may otherwise be seen as “unworthy”. Then people do people things.
Not just “to an extent.” Randomised Controlled Trials (lotteries) are the gold standard for evaluating policy. The political optics for the general public unfortunately aren’t great, but the resulting data will be much more ironclad to refute anyone who argues for repealing such a scheme in the future.
Sure, it’s not without advantages, but it waters down the concept quite a bit. Which may or may not be a bad thing, I guess - lots of people could use a basic income.
you see this a lot with these pilots. its funny because you don’t really see the actual benefits until everyone gets it. Someone can breathe and take some classes to get into a profession or take some time to get into better shape to become a first responder or start a business.
also by the way what i find interesting is that UBI wouldn’t actually have to pay for 100% of people’s living expenses. imagine i get a $100, then i’m gonna spend $30 of that on food at a nearby restaurant, so the chef and waiters are gonna get money, which they then spend again … what i’m saying is that $1 in UBI does far more than $1, because people are gonna spend it and then other people are gonna have it … so you probably need to pay far less than 100% of living expenses, only like maybe 30% could be enough.
edit: this has nothing to do with your comment, i just wanted to write it somewhere.
oh yeah. its kinda like when people talking about a penny costing more to make than a penny but metal coins last much longer in circulation than bills. so if its actually used for its intended purpose then its not an issue as each penny realizes many pennies over its lifetime. The problem comes if the value is so desperate that people hold on to them as a value store. I firmly believe this type of understanding is lacking in our politicians who love half of what keynes said but like to ignore the other half.
How else would you handle distributing a limited resource pot without making judgment about what art is good/valid?
A competitive system is more what I was expecting. So, somebody who’s a big name in Irish art but doesn’t currently make a living would get priority above someone who just has an Etsy shop.
That is a judgement call, but not neccesarily about the worth of the art itself.
A lottery among pre-selected candidates. Just about anything can be considered to be art, so it is inevitable that there would be far more demand than fulfillment. After all, if they gave $1500 per month to anyone who claimed to be an artist, literally every single citizen would suddenly become committed to their “art.”
I’m already a musician, but if I weren’t, I’d become an artist today.
Yeah, exactly. If the selection isn’t competitive it’s vaguely art-themed more than anything, in practice.
This is kind of ridiculous and not even ubi. Universal means universal. And this is clearly not universal. So if only some people get the grant, there needs to be a talent competition and the 2000 best artists should be the winners. Otherwise imagine being objectively a better artist than someone else who got the grant and you didn’t get it. 😡
Trying to rank who is the better artist objectively sounds like a nightmare
Well to start, it would be easy to weed out people who consider themselves artists but nobody, NOBODY likes their “art.”
Nobody in the Irish government has actually used the label “universal” for this program by the way.
Good. Then people discussing it should stop saying “ubi.”
