Susan Horton had been a stay-at-home mom for almost 20 years, and now—pregnant with her fifth child—she felt a hard-won confidence in herself as a mother.
Then she ate a salad from Costco.
Horton didn’t realize that she would be drug-tested before her child’s birth. Or that the poppy seeds in her salad could trigger a positive result on a urine drug screen, the quick test that hospitals often use to check pregnant patients for illicit drugs. Many common foods and medications—from antacids to blood pressure and cold medicines—can prompt erroneous results.
If Horton had been tested under different circumstances—for example, if she was a government employee and required to be tested as part of her job—she would have been entitled to a more advanced test and to a review from a specially trained doctor to confirm the initial result.
And let me guess, she paid for the privilege of being forced to stay 5 days and having her baby taken away from her? Unless she’s got amazing insurance?
Honestly, I’m so glad to live somewhere with public health care.
Yes. However, she will get a payout in the end
She will, but many MANY more won’t be so privileged.
Tbf I don’t think she wants a payout … she just wants her kid back (and maybe have the testing protocols updated to follow the science instead of the stupidity).
She did get her kid back. It’s in the article.
For all those here saying that it can’t happen, here’s some info that says it can.
Poppy Seed Consumption May Be Associated with Codeine-Only Urine Drug Test Results
US Dept of Defense: Service Members Should Avoid Foods With Poppy Seeds
Urinary concentrations of morphine and codeine after consumption of poppy seeds
Poppy Seeds Signal Limitations of Urine Drug Testing Protocols
There was even a Mythbuster episode where they confirmed it. IIRC, their test popped reliably after two bagels.
Yeah it was a good episode. They were blown away.
The last thing I saw about this very topic had mentioned that most newer tests did not have this false positive issue, but many older tests did.
More reliable tests cost more money and the hospitals won’t pay for it (often, anyway).
You’d think they’d opt for it after the cheaper test popped positive before people lost their jobs or children.
You’d think they’d just pass the cost of the better test on at an 8000% markup like they do with everything else.
They can just do a definitive test before reporting, that would solve all of this.
Isn’t that what I said?
Sorry we took your new born away, but ya know, we just can’t afford a better test.
I remember myth busters testing this
Also that Seinfeld episode.
A lot of this article is about drug testing, but this also should remind people how much chaos one shitty, or overworked, nurse can cause.
Omg yes! I perform drug testing and I’ve had instances where nurses called CPS before we could give them a confirmation result causing mayhem for all involved. It makes me want to scream whenever I see screening tests used as evidence against people. Any hospital or government agency making those kinds of decisions based on a screen should be sued to high hell. Also fun fact really high levels of Benadryl will cause you to pop positive for PCP on most drug screens. I’ve had to talk a handful of pediatricians down about that over the years too.
I had a fun event a year ago where I woke up in a Covid ward after surgery because a nurse saw antibodies on a pre-surgery Covid test.
I had covid about a month before, that’s why I still had detectable antibodies. The doctors all knew that. That’s why they admitted me and performed the procedure.
You should have to clear something past an actual doctor if some things are going to get escalated.
I honestly thought that was the case this entire time
I’m sorry but anyone who thinks people with thc in their urine are less valuable than people that don’t, is a worthless piece of human trash themselves. It’s appalling that this is even a thing but more so how many people actually support it staying the way it is.
I was listening to a podcast today or yesterday talking about huge recruiting shortfalls in 3 of 4 military branches in the US. The biggest factor was that the available pool of recruits are 75% ineligible for a variety of reasons, but the biggest factor is past/current drug use. The most common drug: cannabis. Even if someone has used it only once, even if they just tried it, they are ineligible for military service.
It seems pretty foolish, in the biggest recruitment shortfall in American history, to discount your largest possible pool of recruits just because they might’ve smoked a doobie once.
Even if someone has used it only once, even if they just tried it, they are ineligible for military service.
Well that’s just false. You’ll get denied if you pop hot on a drug test at MEPS, but they don’t tend to care if you’ve smoked in the past, except as a barometer for if you’ll smoke in the future. And, like almost everything else in the DoD, there’s a waiver form you can fill out for it too
Can confirm. I signed said waiver. I told them that yeah, I smoke weed, but if my job requires me to be clean, I’m clean. Except Adderall. They gave me 30 days to get clean, sent me to MEPS and made me a Nuke. Then nuke school wouldn’t let me leave and they made me an officer and an instructor.
I joined the Navy to see the world, ffs. I’d already seen South Carolina :/
Lmao I’m picturing a series of comedic events like guy enlists to quietly do his service and sail the world, but keeps getting promoted and sent to the most boring places.
“Congrats Chief, were sending you to West Virginia”
“Congrats LT, we’re sending you to South Carolina”
“Congrats Commander, we’re transferring you to… Montana”
Nevermind Montana admiral we need you in DC.
I left as ET2 and 90% of my time was at prototype in Ballston Spa as an instructor. I went on one short tour and we saw the Persian Gulf.
Y’all still got a gator that hangs out down there? Are the students still headed to that shitty dive bar that didn’t used to check IDs? I’m genuinely curious because I haven’t been there in over 20 years, but I heard the shitty dive actually checks IDs now.
No clue, I was there from '02-'05, sounds like I may have been there while you were there.
We may have been friends. I was that guy that did that thing that one time.
Also confirmed, signed a waiver and still went to a top secret A-school.
deleted by creator
So as someone who’s in his mid 20s and chops more grass than a lawnmower, what kind of experience would I have trying to enlist?
I hope every employer that continues enforcing thc testing in the workplace collaspes. Many of them are already on the brink. I just want to have a normal life and still get to smoke weed sometimes. All I know is that I will continue working towards that goal until I succeed, deal with it.
How would they know though? I know it stays in your system for a couple of weeks but not for months or years so you could just lie on the application form.
She tested positive for heroin, not THC. If she was actually actually heroin, child protective services involvement would absolutely be warranted.
The issue here is the erroneous test and complete failure on the part of the hospital to confirm its results
She tested positive for opiates, not heroin.
Yes, heroin is an opiate.
She tested positive for codeine, the weakest opiate you can possibly get because to trigger any bigger result you’d need a thousand poppy seeds or more.
The hospital is 1000000000² % at fault here. Any competent medical staff doesn’t let this happen.
Heroin is derived from morphine, not directly from poppy seeds.
I don’t think poppy seeds make you test positive for THC.
Not that it really matters but it’s a bit of a stronger drug that it emulates
Counterpoint: Walked my dogs past a Gradeschool (5-13yo) during the hustle and bustle of the first morning of class. Smacked in the face at 8:30am with the stench of weed.
Pillars of the community. No doubt.
I don’t understand how 13-year olds smoking weed is a counterpoint to the other comment…
Looking that his response can be boiled down, “I don’t need to explain myself” I think they can be safely ignored
I wouldn’t expect you to.
Do you usually write comments with the expectation that they aren’t to be understood? Lol
not by you
Then why bother?
Because there are non-degenerates out there that the anecdote will land with.
Hmm…well, it’s clearly not just me. Seems like nobody has any idea what you were going on about, lol
lol lol so sad
Hack writing but yeah, this is possible and I’m surprised there isn’t a better test.
I think there is a better test. The cheap and fast one is tricked though. The fact they didn’t do a more advanced test before taking her child is pretty fucked.
So what happened?? There’s no conclusion after her kid was taken
I heard her talking about it on NPR earlier today. She did get her kid back, but it was a whole fucking ordeal she and her family should have never had to go through in the first place (and thank god she had the resources to fight it)
Also lovely way to start a childs life. Instead of being at the chest of its mother, it gets to be with some overworked strangers, not getting breat fed and not feeling the physical closeness necessary to build a healthy sense of security.
This is a long, long article, but it’s 100% worth it. The entire thing is infuriating.
Agreed.
It sucks for everyone involved too. The mothers, the doctors, the hospital, the caseworkers, all seem to be locked into a ridiculous position because of poor testing equipment, and overly protective laws.
You can always just lie.
Who is “you” in this situation?
Anyone at every step of the way.
“Whoops we didn’t collect enough urine to perform the test.”
“Whoops I spilled it and she’s already in labor”
“Test came back as positive? No that was a false alert”
“Whoops I filled the wrong information in the report and sent the authorities to the wrong place”
“I came to check on her and she clearly wasn’t on drugs so I left”
Etc. These are moral failings of everyone along the way.
That could land them in prison, or at the least they would lose their license in addition to fines.
You’re asking medical personnel to bypass requirements, and in this situation I totally understand how that seems like a win-win, but that’s not a practice we should be encouraging people to do. That’s how people die.
“I was just following the rules”?
On the one hand, you’re correct.
On the other, you need to think and be brave and be willing to take a little risk sometimes to protect others. Otherwise we end up with something like the quote above and…
Mmmm I think it’s important to test. However, the problem is those tests are crappy, and shouldn’t be used as evidence. The solution is to require better tests, and not skip around laws and regulations designed to save lives or protect people. That’s not bravery, because bravery is relative. IMO.
I think that the hospital should be required to perform better tests if the initial test comes back positive or questionable. They can call child services, but child services should not be able to Take action until a more thorough investigation happens.
The choice is between separating a mother from a new born child and not separating her. The mother is now childless, and the child will probably end up in our horrific adoption system. Maybe they will find a loving parent, or maybe they’ll end up loveless. The choice should be easy to make.
I’m not saying lie on all tests. Just on ones where the moral boundaries are incredibly clear.
Ok, would you be willing to gamble your career and freedom on her word that she tested dirty because of eating a salad?
Because your name would be on the paperwork and one of the first individuals pulled in if something questionable happens a year from now and they start auditing. That’s what you’re suggesting other people do with their lives.
Morals are relative. And losing or manipulating tests is against the Hippocratic oath, the very foundation of medicinal treatment.
Thorough investigation should always be done before accusing someone, and all of those drug tests should be considered a false positive until they rule everything out.
100% worth it.
The entire thing is infuriating.
I love to be infuriated!
I’m getting worn out from all the crap to be infuriated about these days. It’s fucking overwhelming the amount of dumb-as-fuck shit capitalists, right-wingnuts and generally lazy people do to others, just for funsies it seems.
The internet has become a fury delivery system. The stories that infuriate us, they are designed for exactly that. Reality is something utterly apart from the stories.
Reality is something utterly apart from the stories.
Aren’t these stories about reality? They’re not made up are they, they actually happened.
There are a thousand ways to spin. So yes and no. Is a half-truth a truth?
I read this as “furry delivery system”, and it still made sense.
For decades, state and federal laws have required hospitals across the country to identify newborns affected by drugs in the womb and to refer such cases to child protective services for possible investigation. To comply, hospitals often use urine drug screens that are inexpensive (as little as $10 per test), simple to administer (the patient pees in a cup), and provide results within minutes.
If Horton had been tested under different circumstances—for example, if she was a government employee and required to be tested as part of her job—she would have been entitled to a more advanced test and to a review from a specially trained doctor to confirm the initial result.
Don’t they charge patience for practically every aspect of the experience why do they care about inexpensiveness?
Do the more expensive test and charge the difference back to the patient.
deleted by creator
“Except for you Marge. You tested positive for crack and PCP.”
Gonna call “hinky” on this.
Back when I had a job that required regular drug testing we WERE told to not eat poppy seeds. But my understanding is that, unless you have other digestive issues (not sure if a baby would count?), it is incredibly unlikely to test positive unless you are mainlining poppy seeds for weeks on end. Its similar to how getting a whiff of something dank isn’t going to make you test positive but you should still avoid those scenarios.
The issue is that if you pissed hot you would immediately need a much more expensive (since you need a proper professional rather than someone who signed a form saying they won’t pleasure themselves while watching you pee…) blood test. And, in the case of contractors, they would then need to deal with the union reps who would fight tooth and nail to ensure that blood test never happens and it is just a headache for everyone. And you can bet those reps always insisted people had just eaten a single poppy seed muffin. Same with the Super Important Parents of the nepo babies.
But yeah. It is fricking wild that it is immediate action without follow up. Especially when someone is going to be in the hospital for at least a day or two anyway.
It’s actually fairly easy to fail a drug test from poppy seeds. It’s literally where we get opium from. You do not need digestive issues, or even a ton of poppyseeds.
It takes like half a teaspoon.
Also not all poppyseeds are created equal. Some contain far more/less alkaloids than others.
Source: I fucking tested it. Go buy some drug tests and organic poppyseeds.
“Easy” is a stretch.
Yes, poppy seeds are the seeds of the poppy plant which is a large component of opium. But they are not actually opium and your body tends to digest the seeds (which are likely already broken down by the cooking process and however long they were in a jar) different than if you were to process and smoke or inject them. Which tends to lead toward trace amounts that should be below most thresholds… unless you are particularly dehydrated or otherwise didn’t digest the seeds properly.
A big part of the issue is that reputable research on how much you can get away with for a piss test tends to not be funded for whatever reason. It is the same reason that it is generally fine to use hemp based products (e.g. Dr Bronner’s) but nobody will ever put that in writing because there are too many unknowns and it just leads to a mess.
Or, going back to smelling something dank at a concert or on a trail? Guidance was always to be terrified and run away to at least five states over. But the reality is that you basically would need to be hot boxed to get enough contact THC from that. But the threshold between “someone in this outdoor venue is smoking a marijuana cigarette” and “I am stuck in a cloud of weed smoke” is very dependent on far too many factors. So it is easier to say “You get paid enough to just avoid it”
And of the less reputable studies (such as the “I am gonna eat poppy seeds and then piss hot”), they tend to have VERY wildly varying seeds. So stuff like fresh seeds off the plant and so forth.
Which is why I still find it wild that they would go from single piss test to action without a blood test. But not THAT wild since blood tests take significantly more time and money.
“Easy” is a stretch.
Not really. I’ve posted a bunch of science that proves that.
Do you have any science that disproves it?
You don’t make opium from the seeds
You can wash them though and the “syrup” around contains morphine, codeine and stuff.
The seeds themselves don’t get processed, but the poppy cup gets cut so this white liquid flows on the outside.That you scrape of and gets processed to opium or heroin.
Its just sap residue but yeah, you’re spot on. Some of the alkaloids linger altho most poppy seeds are washed unless its explicitly skipped
Thanks! Couldn’t come up with the correct word and settled for “syrup” ;-)
No, it’s not easy to pop hot just from eating a dish with poppy seeds and it hasn’t been for a long time. The trace amounts aren’t nearly enough to reach the minimum threshold.
I would be 100% willing to believe hospital used substandard or defective tests, that she was on another legally prescribed medication that causes false positives, or even that the hospital administered opiates themselves, and through negligence and incompetece, forgot to put it in her chart.
But whenever someone says they ate a poppy seed muffin or salad, and that’s the only explanation they have, I’m immediately leaning towards actual opiates being the culprit.
Not saying it’s impossible these days, I’m saying it’s the least likely possible answer between those two options.
That said, this is the American healthcare system, so my money is on hospital error of some kind.
No, it’s not easy to pop hot just from eating a dish with poppy seeds and it hasn’t been for a long time.
Scientific proof please.
This isn’t some new development. Anyone who’s had regular drug testing in the last 20 years is aware of this. Clearly, you haven’t had a regular drug testing requirement for a job, parole, or any other reason.
If you had, you would know that modern tests moved the threshold of detection up because of these issues on early era drug tests, which is why this idea persists.
I won’t call it a myth, because it’s always possible a batch of food grade poppy seeds wasn’t properly processed, and that batch has unusually high alkaline contents, or that someone consumed a disgustingly large amount of poppy seed muffins, or salad dressing, a day before their test, but that would be the exception, not the rule.
Also, have you never had the poppy seed salad from costco? The dressing is in a small plastic ramekin with at most, a tablespoon of poppy seeds, but probably less.
So … link the info on the tests?
You are continuing to appeal to your own authority in this.
Back when I had a job that required regular drug testing we WERE told to not eat poppy seeds. But my understanding is that, unless you have other digestive issues (not sure if a baby would count?), it is incredibly unlikely to test positive unless you are mainlining poppy seeds for weeks on end.
Your understanding is incorrect. It varies depending on the sensitivity of the test and the seeds being ingested, but it is actually quite possible for poppy seeds to trigger a false positive on a urine test for opiates, and it does happen. MythBusters tested this in their 3rd episode many years ago. They bought test kits that were publicly available for workplace testing and followed their instructions. They, like you, went in thinking it was just a myth. The plan was that they would continue ingesting foods with poppy seeds until they either got a positive test or they ate such ridiculous quantities that it wasn’t worth continuing. But they started getting positive results very quickly, (after just a few servings of either poppy seed bagels or poppy seed cake) and they stayed positive for a couple days. They called the companies that manufactured the tests and were assured repeatedly that it was not possible (because of course they would never admit that their tests can get false positive results). US Federal employers that test actually mandate that their tests have a much higher threshold because of this effect. But not everyone uses tests that adhere to that standard, and many are just way too sensitive.
https://www.defense.gov/News/News-Stories/Article/Article/3306336/service-members-should-avoid-foods-with-poppy-seeds/
https://drugfoundation.org.nz/articles/mythbusters-poppy-seeds
https://www.usada.org/spirit-of-sport/education/can-poppyseeds-cause-a-positive-drug-test/I loved Mythubsters but they were far from rigorous scientists (and Adam Savage says that every time he talks about Mythbusters to get Will Smith’s Tested some views).
Again, there are LOTS of variables involved including even whether the poppy seeds were washed or how sensitive the test is. My understanding is the disposable OTC-ish tests tend to be much higher sensitivity because they need to last a lot longer than chemicals in a lab.
Can it happen? Yes. Just like you CAN pop positive for THC from just walking too close to the stoners at a crag. But considering this was mass produced and processed salad dressing at a frigging costco? That is very much in the “oh god, I ate one poppy seed muffin!” territory. And considering that most of those arguments are geared toward people who will be unemployed if they piss hot, it is going to err on the side of caution.
Because there is a big gap between possible and probable. And you’ll note that almost all reputable sources say “it is possible and you should avoid this” in the same way that basically everything sold in California is potentially cancerous.
In fact, for Mythubsters in particular: I would need to rewatch that episode (… I need to rewatch most of their episodes, honestly) but they were always in downtown San Francisco, right? Could EASILY see a case where they got gourmet/organic poppy seed muffins rather than the insanely processed crap you find at a kroger (or a costco).
Going back to hemp oil and THC. From actual tests we totally didn’t misappropriate government lab resources to run, Bronners was incredibly processed and safe. But there was also enough variance bottle to bottle that I would never have (knowingly) risked it. We did basic statistics on the 4-ish bottles we tested but… money.
Whereas we also got a hold of some of the oil used at a local spa and that shit would have made Snoop Dogg dizzy.
I wasn’t presenting Mythbusters as rigorous science, simply pointing out that a false positive is possible when using the tests as directed. If you want hard science, just go to Mayo Clinic’s practical guide for clinicians:
https://www.mayoclinicproceedings.org/article/S0025-6196(11)61120-8/fulltext
Opiate screening cutoff levels for DHHS were changed from 300 ng/mL to 2000 ng/mL of morphine in December 1998 to avoid false-positive results from poppy-seed ingestion. However, the sensitivity for detecting true opiate use can be a concern,112 and most clinical laboratories continue to use the lower cutoff.53 Positive results for heroin abuse are caused by use of prescribed opiates, such as codeine and hydrocodone; however, ingestion of modest amounts of poppy seeds has been known to cause a positive result from urinalysis. Ingestion of poppy-seed cookies (containing about 1 teaspoon of poppy-seed filling available commercially in the United States for baking) produced positive results for opiates within 2 hours of ingestion among 5 patients.62 Codeine was also found in a concentration of 20 ng/mL in 2 samples 2 hours after ingestion. Urine samples analyzed after 24 hours were negative for opiates. Similar results were seen in another analysis in which consumption of poppy-seed bagels produced positive results for codeine and morphine up to 25 hours after ingestion.60 A single bagel was estimated to contain 1.5 mg of morphine and 0.1 mg of codeine. Similar results were observed in other analyses with slight variations ranging from 1 hour for earliest detection of morphine to 60 hours for the latest detection.20
They have citations with links. I’m not going to copy them all here.
Yes. What that says is that it is possible to false-positive. Particularly if the test is overly sensitive
As for the number of patients who did false positive: I might be having one of those days but I can’t find the study size for those. It looks like they are only in referenced papers that I don’t have access to because of a different problem in society.
Which gets back to what I have been saying all alone: Yes, it is possible. No, it is not particularly probable. But considering the consequences of a false positive, almost all guidance is going to say to err on the side of caution.
And, to reiterate, it is insane that social services would step in immediately rather than waiting for a blood test from someone who is already confined to a hospital because… pregnancy.
I love MythBusters, but their results are inconvenient to my unfounded opinions
Yeah I don’t get that part. They’re claiming Mythbusters isn’t reliable but their counter evidence is simply their own belief on how things work and they admit it is actually possible though unlikely.
It looks like they flagged her because she missed multiple check up appointments prior to delivery too, which apparently is a common sign of drug abuse. It really just seems like she’s overwhelmed time-wise and really doesn’t need 5 children but that’s her choice as long as they aren’t harmed.
Unreasonable assumption. The usual prenatal appointments are a recommendation, not a requirement. Many people don’t go to them, especially if they’ve already had kids and are familiar with the process.
I’m just stating what was in the article since most don’t read it.
Well, one of her kids is obese, and I would call that abuse.
But the article was a whirlwind of dumb procedures and overreactions.
Well, one of her kids is obese, and I would call that abuse.
Personally I wouldn’t be so quick to judge on that. 1 out of 3 kids we can see in the photos is overweight, the other two look healthy. There might be something else at play with that one child, which is out of her control, we don’t know that.
No, she picked that one specific child to make fat, because her evil is the extremely targeted kind, obviously.
Such as?
For example Hypothyroidism, Cushing syndrome, pco-syndrome or lipedema and several metabolic deficiencies. Then there’s also a plethora of psychological issues that can influence the metabolism and eating habits negatively. Even the social status has an proven effect on the bodyweight.
All we have is a couple of pictures of the child, it’s impossible to tell what is going on.
I mean… some people just deal worse with food in many ways. You can give three children the exact same food and they’ll all end up with different amounts of body fat.
Everyone has a different dietary need. A parent’s job is to meet those needs. If they cannot, they shouldn’t be able to have kids—especially five of them.
Gonna call “hinky” on this.
Thanks for defending a human world which has been purposefully designed to harm other humans.
As the article states:
The harms of drug testing fall disproportionately on low-income, Black, Hispanic, and Native American women, who studies have found are more likely to be tested when they give birth, more likely to be investigated, and less likely to reunite with their children after they’ve been removed.
These are people about whom you do not really care, I suppose, so wishful thinking about how ‘isn’t the world great?’ is more important than compassion for other living beings, in this circumstance.
Gonna call “hinky” on this.
Got scientific proof of that or is just a feewing you get?
“I’m a white man with status and power, and I experience the world as great. As these women who don’t make as much money as me are just whining.”
Some people think they’re progressive and caring because they are involved in pro-Dem politics, when the Democrat party is centre-right.
Ah. Apologies. I thought I was speaking with an adult. Not a child who can’t have a conversation without randomly antagonizing others.
Have fun.
Poor you.
When I did some reading on this subject in the past what I came across was that there is a difference between washed poppy seeds an unwashed poppy seeds which Is exactly as it sounds. Unwashed poppy seeds have a higher opiate content due to a thin coating on the outside that they likely picked up while still inside the seed pod. That seed pod is the primary source of opium. So, basically It can boil down to what company the poppy seeds were sourced from and whether or not they had been rinsed off with water prior to hitting the market.
Mythbusters did an episode on this.
2 poppyseed bagels were enough to have them test positive: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_MythBusters_pilot_episodes#Episode_P3_–_"Poppy-Seed_Drug_Test"
They remained positive for at least 8 more hours and by the next morning they had tested negative again.
They address your point in the article. The protections you speak of, that workers fought hard for, do not always or often extend to pregnant mothers.
Removed by mod
deleted by creator
Nice to see the western propaganda against poppy seeds still going strong. No wonder it’s so damn hard to buy reasonably priced seeds in NA to bake one of these puppies https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f7/Makowiec.jpg/440px-Makowiec.jpg
This is not propaganda against poppy seeds, read the article
Hell even reading just the title while possessing a modicum of critical thinking skills would do.
I sincerely hate Makowiec, but will eat it out of politeness (and will poke out some stuff due to “gluten”).
Had a funny funny with it at a festival a couple of years ago, just post the Covid restrictions. Had eaten a heavy load of poppy pastries that last week due to relatives birthdays and christenings, and I was pulled into “routine testing” as I was in a pretty “Happy” company at the festival where we all were held over night because some had taken illicit funsies.
Yeah, was a lot of misunderstandings and not fun.
Removed by mod
