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But the Democrats said they had to support genocide for the voters.
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Democrats can only win the election if they support the Israeli ethnic cleansing of Gaza and the West Bank
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The only reason Democrats lost the election was because far-left pro-Hamas single-issue voters handed it to Donald Trump by failing to vote for Kamala Harris
Listen, Donald Trump is the worst. The absolute worst. Therefore, Democrats should be allowed to endorse a genocide to win an election. Anyone who disagrees is basically Russian.
The only reason Democrats lost the election was because far-left pro-Hamas single-issue voters handed it to Donald Trump by failing to vote for Kamala Harris
And you definitely should not mention the part where Holocaust Harris still would’ve lost even if she received every single third-party vote, even including Libertarians who usually lean right. Blue MAGA is as hostile towards that basic fact as Red MAGA is towards… most basic facts.
EDIT: See? Downvotes for basic, verifiable math lol
Holocaust Harris still would’ve lost even if she received every single third-party vote
Obviously it wasn’t just the third party voters who betrayed her, but all the non-voters as well.
She ran the perfect campaign, but was stabbed in the back!
I mean, you didn’t do the math, why should we?
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The sensible liberal centrist position to take is “a bit of genocide”. So instead of sending 35 billion in military aid, you send 20. It’s called realpolitik, and it’s the adult thing to do.
That’s why they grovelled in front of Kissinger.
Next in news, water is wet.
The report: everything we were screaming into the void from 2023 till 2024.
The report is moot other than the fact they trying to bury it because anyone with two twigs to run together knows the answer, knew it before it happened, knew it while it was happening, and knows it now.
Trump was easily beatable in 2024 and Dems blew it at every turn.
You want to see the roadmap for beating Trump?
Sort c/politics by controversial and read the top five threads of comments.
It’s all there in black and white, in no uncertain terms. And the shitlibs who insisted we take the worst strategy turns possible (and advocating for them in those threads)…they mostly jumped ship (santanko and squid being notable examples).
It’s also worth nothing how many voices who go their analysis at the time basically correct at the time it would have mattered, how many of them are banned from politics as a whole. There was a clear moderation effort made to cultivate a specific type of conversation here.
I feel really stupid asking this but how do you sort by controversial? I hit the sort button but none of them says controversial. I’m using piefed app. Sorry I’m new here.
In voyager I press the cool skull button:
Thanks friend. Looks like the piefed app doesn’t have this functionality. Guess it’s time to change.
If genocide isn’t a red line then there are no red lines, every lib that voted for blue no matter who should be in the Hague along with the rest of the murderers
You really saved us all with your… not voting?
I voted third party. The allure of being hated by the entire country for my voting decisions is too compelling to pass up.
So did I. And if the rest of the lib population had any actual ethics third party would have won
You mean Jill Stein who shows up ever 4 years, runs for the president, siphoning off 2 to 3% of the liberal vote over a single issue, collects a check, and then disappears for 4 years. That’s not a real third party, that’s a grift.
I voted for her but like I’m not a liberal so…
Still voted for a con artist.
She can’t siphon votes that were never going to the DNC to begin with. Where’s any of the DNC leaders right now when we have ice arresting and killing citizens, trump running all over the constitution, a house rep tweeted today that someone should tell trump to do his job, and if she’s not that someone elected into office to do just that. Jill on the other hand is actually attending protests in support of the working class.
Where is she now?
You really saved us with your… supporting genocide?
If you allowed trump to win, you supported genocide.
If you allowed Harris to think she could win while supporting genocide, you supported genocide. The only way to get to a “no genocide” outcome was for you to participate in making it clear to Harris that it was a non-negotiable point. But you centrists couldnt be bothered to even vote uncommitted in the “primary”.
You let genocide exist within the democratic party. Thats why innocents are dead. Because you felt OK negotiating other peoples existence for whatever your hot button issues were. You were 100% willing to throw nameless browns into the gears of the US government to keep the big machine oiled and lurching forward. Grow some ethics and you’ll win more elections.
If the party machine 100% needs blood sacrifice to function, then it needs to be destroyed. But thats the thing isnt it. It doesnt need that sacrifice, you just allowed it because you’re a lazy unprincipled centrist with no respect or empathy for your fellow humans.
Innocents were dead either way. What’s worse, ten thousand dead innocents or a hundred thousand dead innocents?
What’s your answer to the trolley problem? Do you let ten people die because you don’t want the moral culpability of one person’s death?
Combine that with the “drowning child” thought experiment. If you witness a child drowning in a pond, do you have a moral responsibility to save them? If you simply walk away, are you less morally culpable for that child’s death?
My answer to the trolley problem is to physically stop the people tying others to the tracks when that was never necessary or helpful. Better yet, grab the people tying innocents to railroad tracks and tie them to the tracks instead, and start shoveling coal into that train. Let me give you a hint here: you are a person tying people to the tracks.
Why didnt you make it clear to harris that genocide wasnt an option? Where were you centrists when it was time to stand up and be counted? Harris’s stand on soft peddling the genocide wasnt inevitable. She did it because the party let her think she could get away with it. And now look at you, still at it, having learned nothing from losing the election run on your terms.
I voted third party
Man… how many bricks to the side of y’all’s head do we have to take to get you to understand that a) an election isn’t about individual choice, and b) telling people what to do with their votes is counter productive.
If you were doing in 2023/24 what you are doing now, with that comment: You’re why fascism won.
You aren’t part of the collective that got it right. You’re being the shit lib who handed the world to the fascists.
Fascism won because millions of people refused to vote against it, because the alternative wasn’t perfect.
Stop blaming the people who literally voted against fascism. Does believing in harm reduction make one a “shitlib” in your view?
Fascism won because the Democratic party didn’t want to adopt an anti-genocide stance. Its not harm reduction when it enables the harm. Its not strategic voting when the strategy backfires.
You’re an apologist for fascism if you are blaming voters.
Biden and Harris were nowhere near as bad for Gaza as trump is, and papering over that detail hasn’t helped the situation
An entire fucking genocide happened under their “deeply concerned” watch bruh.
Stop apologizing for fascism.
Saying something over and over doesn’t mean its true.
That said, I hate both the DNC and the non-voters. I can do both. If free will exists, then I can blame both. (I mean I don’t believe in free will, but on an emotional level fuck both anyway, I don’t owe either of them shit.)
You hated the DNC so much you voted for them and defend their actions tooth and nail?
I voted for them for tactical purposes. Both because at the time I cared about the well being of my fellow human beings and I care about my own well being. These days I’m not so sure I care about humans or even myself. I’m still grappling with the point of it all now that we’re doomed.
I understand that tactics aren’t likely your strong suit, so let me make it clear: I do not have to love the democrats as a party to vote for them. I just have to have a basic grip on reality that it was either them or fascism. Because its first past the post we are dealing with.
Well then tactically you fucked up lol
it was either them or fascism
Who do you think helped prop up and build the foundations for fascism? That’s what your tactics resulted in.
Saying something over and over doesn’t mean its true.
Denying reality over and over again doesn’t make you right and the perspective you are espousing was the dominant narrative up until the elective. That individually voters just needed to “do better”. You want to blame voters; you need them to win elections. Explain to me how you plan on getting back the 6% of Democratic voters you lost using your approach? You blamed them for failure before the contest was even run and they didn’t show up for you. Now what? How does your analysis change their minds into showing up?
What you are doing is the same thing petroleum companies did around recycling in the 90s. By believing this is some negotiation of individual choice, you are obscuring the fact that the Democrats structurally undermined their own ability to stop fascism. Blaming the individual is why fascism won.
You want to blame voters; you need them to win elections. Explain to me how you plan on getting back the 6% of Democratic voters you lost using your approach?
I don’t need to win shit anymore. I don’t care, its obviously a fool’s errand to give a shit. The 2024 US election taught me that. All worrying about politics does is hurt me and waste my time with fools.
You blamed them for failure before the contest was even run and they didn’t show up for you. Now what? How does your analysis change their minds into showing up?
All that’s left is rot, so I’m going to pick through the garbage and hope to find some gems before we all drown in shit. My analysis is just based on brutal reality. They did not show up “for themselves” as well. Its not just me they’ve hurt. Leopards are eating faces, and not all the owners of those faces are “shitlibs” and MAGA, some of them are protestors who didn’t vote.
There is no means for me to change people’s minds on voting so you don’t need worry about me trying. I just want people to understand that the very virtue obsessed moral framework they are using to make their decision to not vote has hurt them. Its doomed them. I want them to feel bad about it because in so far that someone can deserve to feel bad about it, they definitely should.
What you are doing is the same thing petroleum companies did around recycling in the 90s. By believing this is some negotiation of individual choice, you are obscuring the fact that the Democrats structurally undermined their own ability to stop fascism. Blaming the individual is why fascism won.
No its not. In a purely rational sense, I don’t really blame anyone. Free will doesn’t actually exist.
But within the context of people I can like, dislike, or hate as the emotional creature that I am: I definitely can fucking loathe multiple groups at the same time and feel catharsis at their suffering.
I think you are still operating under the delusion that this second Trump term is something we will escape from, but the thing is, bad times don’t create good times. They create more bad times. We are in the gravity well of a metaphorical political and environmental black hole, and you are in denial.
The dems will win in 2028, and it wont matter much, other than we’ll get some sweet painkillers as we pass into oblivion. Because the GOP will win in 2032. Or society will completely collapse. Or the globe will roast all of our food and we’ll all starve. There are not much in the way of good things to look forward to.
I don’t need to win shit anymore. I don’t care,
Great. Then just keep it all to yourself then. All bottled up deep inside so you don’t hand the fascists another victory.
I can see both sides of this. Yes, the moral and proper thing to do is to be anti-genocide and to take an anti-Israal, anti-Zionist position after the Gaza invasion. We were right to insist upon it as a condition for our vote and whoever the Dem nominee was should have taken a hard anti-Gaza war stance. However, the reality of the situation is that the vile monsters that control the party didn’t listen to us and ignored or talked around this issue for those sweet, sweet AIPAC dollars. We all know that they didn’t listen to us for an entire year. This was the reality on election day.
Knowing this, if you still voted for Trump, a third party, or “not at all” on election day instead of holding your nose and voting for Harris, you are just as responsible for the fascism we have now as any shitlib who was screaming at anyone and everyone to “fuck off, and fall in line” or “vote blue no matter who” before and during the election.
You didn’t have to tell anyone you were going vote for Harris. In fact, we should have been telling the Dem party that we will refuse to vote for them right up until the end. Hell, you can still deny today that you ever voted for Harris in 2024, as long as you actually did in secret.
My absolute favorite downvoted comment. Will frame it for posterity
Good comment.
Their tactic of “We not as bad as X” doesn’t work anymore. The compromising position is to compromise yourself. Never again.
So you’re saying you’re an ICE enabler and collaborator by that logic?
You want to try people at the hague for voting against fascism? That sounds like something a fascist would say.
What about the people who refused to vote against it, do you just want to give them a pass?
I guess the millions starving because USAID got cut isn’t a red line.
Or all the undocumented immigrants in the US getting rounded up into camps, some whisked away to who knows where, also isn’t a red line.
Or women losing their bodily autonomy on the first go around, due to SCOTUS being cemented as conservative for the rest of our lives.
Or trans people fearing for their lives and being unable to flee the US because their passport will get scrutinized.
Or virtually all environmental regulations in the US getting cut so now we contribute more intensely to our cooking planet.
All of this is not only not a redline, its preferable. Because the shitlibs must be punished, right?
I don’t think I will ever understand you. I don’t even know if you’re real. What are you trying to accomplish?
The sole purpose of USAID was for regime change and the illusion of aid needed caused by US actions
Dems had 50 years and multiple opportunities to protect women’s rights and did nothing but raise money off that fear.
The first 2 months of Bidens war in Gaza released the equivalent of 275k tons of burning coal, not so concerned about the environmental pact of that.
Edit sp
I’m sure now that USAID is shut down the regime change will stop. The millions of starving people clearly were a necessary sacrifice.
When it’s US actions that were causing them to starve, yes
They were a necessary sacrifice? Wait you are going to need to elaborate.
They wouldn’t be starving if the US stayed out of their politics. The US creates the circumstances to destabilize their economies, overthrow their governments then come in with USAID to assist as if they didn’t cause the problem.
Oh you edited in some more.
Dems had 50 years and multiple opportunities to protect women’s rights and did nothing but raise money off that fear.
Yeah I hate the dems too.
The first 2 months of Bidens was in Gaza released the equivalent of 275k tons of burning coal, not so concerned about the environmental pact of that.
I promise you that the environmental impact of Gaza being turned into glass is dwarfed by the invasion of Ukraine and like, everything else going on globally. You live in a stupid bubble where everything bad that exists is because of zionism and Israel and their genocide of Palestinians. If cared enough I’d bet money.
And every non-voter who’s “high road” they dichtomously make fun of Obama for has allowed more genocide is what, better? The choices were some genocide or more genocide, avoiding the choice is just a choice for more genocide. Trolley on way to kill 5 people do you pull the lever to kill 1 or don’t pull the lever and let it kill 5. Unsurprising that people will blame you for not pulling the lever and you’re upset that people did try and pull the lever.
Yes but they should probably blame the guy that tied people to the track in the first place. I think most see it as scapegoating. Politicians dictate their own policies and you have to be very vocal about the ones that suck to be heard over the corporate money. Blaming voters gets you zilch in terms of change.
I’m going to blame the guy who tied six people to the tracks as well as the guy that didn’t pull the lever. I’m going to blame the guy who tied them to the tracks a lot more, but I can blame both.
I disagree. I don’t think we should support genocide at all, full stop, period. But I guess some folks are okay with a little genocide, as a treat
It’s fine as long it’s just cultural genocide and ice is doing it instead of the IDF. It’s wild how some of you care more about Palestine than your own fucking neighbors.
You mean some folks are okay with more genocide, as long as they pretend not doing the bare minimum to reduce the account of genocide absolves them of responsibility.
You are litterally doing the thing that handed the country to fascists: you are a fascist enabler.
If you continue to blame voters instead of those in power, you are supporting fascism, and we should ALL collectively recognize you as a fascist.
Yeah, fuck me for thinking vote for the lesser evil and work towards better rather than let the greater evil win and then??? How dare I desire not to worry about gestapo throwing me in a hole for my skin color while I fight for better. Instead of fighting for better im just fighting to survive. Fucks sake.
Yeah, fuck me for thinking vote for the lesser evil and work towards better
Yeah. Fuck you for that. Thinking like that blew the fucking election and handed the country to fascists. Thats what we’re saying. Accepting or advocating for lesser evil loses elections time and again. If you were advocating for that approach in 2023/4, the fascism is on you.
Its the entire point we’ve been making since 2023.
So what was your alternative then, genius? Did you vote for the fucking green party? You third party people pretend to be moral but you’re literally ejaculating at the chance to massively inflate your pathetic ego, meanwhile there are thousands of people in concentration camps all around the country because of your narcissistic bullshit.
You are responsible for that and just like the magat trash you should be held accountable. You stabbed your own neighbors in the back in the name of a bunch of people you’ve never even met. Fucking traitor. Fucking narcissist.
Move the fucking candidate to electable fucking positions you fucking dingus. You can’t move the fucking electorate. Period. Accept the reality of how elections work and fucking adjust accordingly shit-for-brains, instead of insisting a population vote for a candidate whose policies they don’t want.
Blue MAGA did this to us you fucking moron. People who insisted that people just had to suck it up and fucking vote for genocide when instead they could have been insisting the candidate change her fucking position.
It’s like you turds go through completely unwilling to accept the reality of how elections work. You just keep insisting that we have to rely on voter to just "do better when they never do.
If you can’t accept that some people won’t vote for a pro genocide candidate,and that you lost the election by insisting people do so, you are why we are here.
Reminder that there are more then two choices on every ballot in every county. If you don’t bother using them because you really think “your team” should win, then you don’t really have any business participating in democracy.
Sure, that sounds good to say in theory, but I’m sure you’re aware that a First Past the Post voting system kinda makes a third party effectively a wasted vote. Normally I’d support a third party absolutely, but in the last election, a vote that wasn’t for Dems was, unfortunately, a vote for Trump and I’m having a hard time believing you’re actually so dense as to not understand that
You will never get to vote for change if you always accept what you are given. Every single election since I started paying attention to politics has been “the most important election in my lifetime.” So with your thinking there is never a time to vote for your values, only the values Capitalists have enshrined in both candidates by choosing which candidates of both parties are “electable.”
Lesser evil never leads towards better, it leads to worse. A small acceptable amount of evil allows for a larger evil the next time. 50+ years if that shit and here we are
Lesser evil never leads towards better, it leads to worse.
Even more so with a greater evil.
Nobody is saying “settle for the lesser evil”. They are saying it’s easier to fight for progress against the lesser evil than the greater evil.
Small, acceptable amounts of evil allows for a larger amount of evil the next time. If you compound that over decades, you have our current situation. You can’t vote your way out of our current situation.
Well, I suppose you’re welcome to your opinion, even if it’s an absolutely horrid one.
Youve convinced me. Voting FOR genocide was probably the best solution
You were just fine with genocide as long it targeted black people and Latinos in America and not Palestinians.
Oh wait they’re targeting Palestinian immigrants here too. Fucking oops?
The real issue with you people it’s that you don’t actually care about anyone but yourself. It’s all about your pathetic EGO and being right and not protecting people to the best of your ability.
Fuck every last one of you third party ICE-loving traitors.
Ah, yes. Because that’s the most objectionable part of that opinion, not ‘We should jail people for their voting behavior’. Can you get any more authoritarian?
Edit: But sure, if that’s where we’re going, I’ll bite:
It was a two party race. There were no other viable candidates. You didn’t vote against Trump in any meaningful way; you did nothing to prevent our current situation, and that’s a pretty wild stance to be defending.
Biden or Harris obviously clearly weren’t viable candidates either. Turns out you cant run on war crimes from the left.
They lost by 1% so that makes them non-viable? As opposed to who? How does this blatantly stupid garbage get upvotes?
Cool and all but the popular vote is NOT how US elections are tallied. Harris lost all 7 battleground states. 312 electoral votes to 226. thats 42% Harris to 58% Trump in the tally. Harris trailed an openly fascist clown by 16 percentage points. It wasnt even close.
At the time of the election 75% of US voters polled thought the country was going in the wrong direction, and Harris had said she “wouldnt change a thing”. Including US support of a genocide. You think running on policies that have a 75% disapproval and are being condemned by the entire world = viable candidate?
Its flatly amazing the Dem candidate did as well as they did with those horrific campaign choices Harris made. But even that miracle couldnt stand against Dem’s open support for Israeli genocide.
no other viable candidates
But there were other candidates that I actually like. Claudia de la Cruz, for instance.
All your candidate would do is kick the can down the road for a few years before “the most important election of OUR ENTIRE LIVES” happens again. I’d like to vote for someone I actually support before I inevitably get my throat slit by some SS whackjob, you know?
Tell that to all the people IN FUCKING CAMPS right now. I bet they would’ve loved a few more years of freedom. You talk in hypotheticals about what might happen to you, meanwhile it is not hypothetical for many of us.
Fuck your detached academic bullshit. You don’t give a flying fuck about anyone but yourself and your little ego.
Shouldn’t you be organizing so your people don’t get easily abducted by some psycho cops? Or if you’re not planning to do that, getting your asses out of the country so the psycho cops can’t find you?
I was proud when I saw that the people of Minneapolis could call in some people to come help if ICE was spotted on the prowl. Those guys know how to take care of business.
But then we’ve got the Blue No Matter Who folks who think the feds will put a stop to the madness if they just vote a little bit harder. It’s like you could have a family member of yours be dragged into a black van right in front of you by ICE and all you would say is, “Oh, I’ll call my congressman to secure your release! Yeah!”. Compared to doing everything in your power to rescue your family member, even if the cops execute you for it.
Claudia de la Cruz
Who?
Socialist candidate in 2024.
She wasn’t “my” candidate, any more than Donald Trump was “your” candidate. I voted against Donald Trump. Folks who voted third party didn’t do that. They may not have voted for him, but they didn’t vote against him.
If Kamala Harris wasn’t against the genocide, a vote for Kamala wasn’t a vote against Trump, or fascism, or genocide or anything else.
Kamala wasn’t going to win while supporting the genocide. Period. It’s not a debate. Voting for her wasn’t a vote against Trump because with her holding that stance, she couldn’t beat Trump (which is objective reality:she didn’t beat Trump).
It was a two party race.
Wrong.
Next up: Dems working on secret report found Epstein and Trump were friends!
Not just friends! Best friends! Besties!
The dissent was widely known and broadcast — they chose their line. And it will cost us decades if not generations.
yep, I think the centrists think of it as a single lost election that they can just have a do over on next cycle. Many of the dem base voters they imagine will come back are third party for life now. People take supporting genocide pretty personally. Many on here like finitebanjo and givesomefucks want to pretend the DNC dems never supported genocide. But they did, and still do. Theres no take backsies or do overs on that.
I like to point out that Democrats had anti-LGBT+ beliefs, feelings, and I’m certain passed legislation for it then started backing off when it became hot button relevant. Which is good, but they are not the innocent poster boys/girls they like to make themselves out to be.
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So we’re just saying things now huh
Provide evidence of statement. Watch them try to disagree with their very eyes. Orwellian as hell with the neo-libs in this post.
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The comment you were responding to.
I like to point out that Democrats had anti-LGBT+ beliefs, feelings
The video proves objectively that was true. Same with genocide today. The party doesn’t get to skate by ignoring genocide anymore. They must change or they will continue to lose. If you continue to vote for their continued support of genocide, it means you support genocide.
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Don’t pretend or white wash it, even Democrats were anti-LGBT+.
They still are, we all saw how Harris threw trans under the bus
Ya I’m stil on the if your trans thats fine doesn’t bother anyone.
But the keep your son off my natural daughter’s team. Is an opinion a lot of people have and to pretend that’s not turning away voters is huge. And trying to force it will continue to equal losses
Downvote me all you want, I know I am right, you deep down know I’m right. And the majority of Americans are right
You can take your “both sides equally bad” and shove it you worthless scumbag.
Nope, because they’re the same side.
…Useless centrists whining about the outcomes of their own bad ideas as they steer the party off cliff after cliff. You know who saw Harris’s loss coming in the last election Halfsaleman? Everyone. Everyone but centrists like yourself as you cheerfully pulled the voting lever to support what you claim without proof was support for a “lesser, kinder, gentler” genocide. We’re all here in trumpland because of people like yourself.
You are delusional or a liar and your painting me as a centrist is cope or hollow propaganda. Eat shit.
Wow! You mean that thing that a shitload of people were screaming warnings about has finally been heard? And only 18 months too late to do anything about it! At this rate, they might figure out that trump is a pedophile before he dies. I sure do have a lot of hope that future elections are gonna go well and totally not be ratfucked out in the open with no pushback of any actual consequence. I’m glad that there will be a stern letter threatening to file a lawsuit (that will never happen) due to armed CBP and ICE at the polls terrorizing BIPOC. Inspiring stuff, papa Schumer!
Also the think they told those during surveys to not include in reports 🙃
Huh. Maybe next time we tell them “supporting mass murder is bad even if the other side does it too” they’ll listen.
They won’t. They would rather lose and be controlled opposition. But one can hope for change.
Who could have predicted supporting mass murder would look bad?
Funny enough. Last week they still are.
They’re still openly defending Israel.
Scoop: no fucking shit.
So exhausting.
All the crummy neo-lib takes makes me regret having voted for it to begin with. I compromised myself for the sake of damage control and I’m furious about it. I consider a neo-liberal as no better than MAGAt because when the mask comes off, they aren’t.
We’ve seen the mask of humanity fall off, and we’re asked not to believe what we’ve seen with our own eyes. It’s absolutely disgusting. I’ve seen liberals call not wanting to support an actual genocide a purity test. I’ve seen them refer to billions in military aid for a genocide “not perfect” (the implication being “good enough for me”).
Now, finally, American fascism is turning inward. They finally feel even just 1% of the violence they’ve been meting out on the rest of the world for decades, under every single president since Eisenhower. They deserve all of it, and more.
Yeah, I often think about that post that goes something like, “Donald Trump has done more damage to the American Empire and its propaganda machine than the last few decades of leftist organizing.”
I don’t like it. But I’m not sure it’s wrong either lmao
Good thing we don’t all get what we deserve.
The neolibs are usually treating LGBTQ+ folks and immigrants as remotely human, as opposed to targets. Even if you find the two parties to be woefully similar on too many big issues, please remember that, for as long as we exist in the shit system where election day really only lets you meaningfully choose between these two shitty parties, the lives of disenfranchised and vulnerable people do sit in one of the areas of difference where your vote could change something.
Neo-libs treat LGBTQ and immigrants as just another group of ppl to exploit for financial gain. Pretending they actually give a shit about anyone other than themselves is naive
Never said they gave a shit, just noting that - at minimum - they don’t seem to be shouting as loudly that they should be denied medical care, deported, etc. I will continue to do what is reasonably within my power, means, and capacity to work for a society that is fair and equal for all. If an election comes around that only meaningfully lets me choose between two piles of shit, I will choose the less smelly one rather than abstain.
“Please endorse the systemic murder of tens of thousands of children so I can maintain safety and comfort without needing to push for a candidate who will maintain my safety and comfort without carpet bombing babies.”
Sorry, no.
Also, remind me, those photos of Border Patrol agents whipping Haitian immigrants at the border… which administration was that under again?
Remind me, why did Dems refuse to codify abortion protections when they had a supermajority under Obama?
Dems don’t treat LGBTQ / immigrants as human, they treat them as chess pieces. They just play them with a different strategy than Republicans.
I absolutely do not support the Democrat party writ large, and especially not on the willful disregard for genocide and other atrocities. Don’t decide for me that that is my stance, or put those words in my mouth and effectively tell other people that is how I feel.
My core point is that, Democrats seem to be less vocally approving/encouraging about stochastic terrorism against LGBTQ+ people, immigrants, and other marginalized groups, whether they are privately seeing them as chess pieces or human beings.
If one group is shouting that my cousins are subhuman trash undeserving of equal treatment and dog whistling support for people who advocate violence against them, and the other group is at least not encouraging the same violence, then my cousins would seem to be safer under the second group.
I advocate loudly for party reform or replacement and consider that to be the more important part of civic duty in this arena. When it comes time for an election, past when we can do a lot to change which two people actually have a chance to win a presidency, I will cast my vote for the one less likely to get my cousins killed.
If words and theater alone are sufficient to appease you, if the death of innocent human beings overseas is an acceptable price for the protection of those close to you, then that’s your prerogative. If that is the case, though, then I will not be quiet about how revolting I find your moral calculus to be. And I have no doubt that my nonbinary, immigrant partner would share in my disgust, doubly so if you feigned it to somehow be in her interest.
Do your cousins think that protecting them from harsh rhetoric is an acceptable exchange for the genocide of children? Or are you doing it solely for your own comfort? Because, while we’re sharing anecdotes, if it’s the former, then I suspect that my transgender, pro-Palestine cousin might like to have a word with them.
Jesus, you seem to relish in imagining my meaning to be so opposed to your own. Obviously words and theater enough aren’t alone. I think I made that clear. I also think we are done talking, since it doesn’t seem to matter what I say.
Indeed, I don’t think I can convince you that the deaths of Palestinians should take precedence over the hypothetical discomfort, or even danger, of those closest to you. I can’t convince you that all human beings are of equal value. You’re on your own there.
You don’t need to, I already agree with you on that point.
Nah sorry, at some point it’s on the Dems to pick an electable candidate. People act like it’s just leftists being unreasonable but the majority of Dem voters are pissed at the DNC. Responsibility isn’t a one sided thing here, you can’t expect a dog to be loyal if you keep kicking it.
I fully agree that the Democrat party needs to get its shit together, or more realistically torn down and rebuilt. Just also saying that, when all is said and done and it comes time for the general election, I’m going to place my vote where it’s going to do the most to deny, or at least delay, authoritarians.
My surprised Pikachu meme died a while ago. Pretend I’m posting him here.
Yup, all those folks withheld their votes, and now Gaza is saved!
Blaming the voters would’ve worked, if it weren’t for those meddling kids, too!
Who else wasted their votes besides stupid voters?
Seahawks QB Matt Hasselbeck, that’s who.
RIP rain city bitch pigeons
You if you voted for kamala. What a wasted vote. Do better next time.
Oh yeah, remind me which third party held a significant amount of votes to rival Trump, if only Harris hadn’t taken that last 100 votes?
What state was going to turn if all green party voters voted Harris?
Because you can’t name one, I’ll proceed to the next point: it’s the job of the party to court votes. That’s it. They don’t have another job. And when they fail in doing that, they’ve failed in their job.
A party blaming voters is like a sailor blaming the sea. The sea just is what it is. There is nothing any sailor or captain, or person looking from land can do to change the manner of the sea.
The voters are the way they are. You can hate the way that they are, you can wish they were different than how they are, but that doesn’t not change them. We told you this in 2023. You ignored us and told us that “the voters just needed to suck it up and vote this way”. But the voters didn’t, because that’s not how voters work. And by resisting calls for the party to change, you are doing the work of setting us up for further failure.
If you are blaming voters, an amorphous blob over which neither you, nor I, nor anyone else has control of: you are a saboteur of the effort to stop fascism.
It is politically illiterate to blame voters. When the sailors in board tell the captain “don’t go that way, there are rocks”, and the captain says "well the rocks better move, whose fault is it that the rocks didn’t move?
Libs would rather try to get millions of ordinary people to give up their most fundamental moral principles than ask one powerful person to exhibit basic human decency. They essentially treat politicians like gods, to be followed unconditionally. No form of democracy could ever work with such a submissive populace.
That’s if you take what they say at face value, anyway. The reality is a lot of them don’t want to pressure politicians about things like the genocide of foreigners because they don’t genuinely care. They just have to pretend to for rhetorical reasons to appease leftists. If a politician disagrees with them on something they actually care about, they may suddenly find their misplaced spines. Hard to say how many are like that, as opposed to the ones who are genuinely spineless.
You can’t expect the people who blindly vote for their favorite color to actually understand what an election is, let alone want to win an election.
They don’t care what happens in the oval office as long as it’s blue. Like how Biden didn’t actually stop the cages on the border, they just ignored it until Trump was in office. And then they pretend to care again as they say all Latinos are guilty of what the DNC chose to ignore.
Let’s not overlook Biden as a senator voting for increased police funding as well as making federal student loan debt harder to discharge while also being more predatory. Politically he’s still highly conservative just not AS conservative. At this point any point of conservatism is beyond reprehensible to me.
I won’t overlook it, neither did the people in the 2020 primaries before Biden was forced into the front runner, with the woman who called him out on his racist policies impacting her as a child as the VP pick.
Idk about the Greens, but Biden had 6 Million more votes in 2020 than Harris did in 2024. That’s a lot of abstainers.
Okay, take another step: how do you get those voters to have voted in 2024?
We’re going to run two experiments, @FiniteBanjo@feddit.online , which will both start with the following premise:
It’s August 2024, the night before the convention, and you are Kamala Harris’s campaign manager. You are just coming off the big bump in polling you got from naming Tim Walz your vp. So far, your polling has been meteoric. You managed to got from the low forties high thirties to high forties in weeks.
You’ve got 1.5 billion dollars to spend, and a week of captured media going into the convention. You have three months.
The experiment (0, 1) is conducted by you answering the following questions follows:
0 You are not allowed to change the candidates policy positions. Explain how you would use 1.5 billion dollars and 3 months to win an election.
1 You are allowed to change the candidates policy positions. Explain how you would use 1.5 billion dollars and 3 months to win an election.
If you actually answer those in good faith, you figure out how to get those 6 million voters back, and perhaps also understand how to have not lost them in the first place.
Maybe we could fight back against the constant feed of misinformation run by Republicans, Billionaires, and Hostile Foreign Dictatorships? Yeah, I think thats how we get those votes back. We need DNC boots on the ground, door to door deep canvasing. Volunteering for the DNC is the most successful strategy to get the GOP out of power. It’s how we tax the rich, pass singlepayer, remove PAC money, punish bribery, and hold criminals at the highest level of government accountable.
You could at least pretend to try and answer the question in good faith.
You’ve got 1.5 billion dollars to spend: What do you do differently in the Harris campaign, if not change her policies, that causes her to win?
And if you can’t propose a method to using the 1.5 billion dollar warchest to win without changing her policies then you have to concede that we were right.
Musk bought twitter for $44 Bn and idk how much TikTok costs the Chinese but it made $33 Bn in Revenue, the arbitrary $1.5Bn seems pretty inconsequential.
Personally I’d have done more grassroots organization, more paid and volunteer position openings, and remove that guy from the campaign team who said there wouldn’t be an unrealized gains tax: that guy sucks. Definitely don’t bring the Chenneys on stage.
Personally I’d have done more grassroots organization, more paid and volunteer position openings, and remove that guy from the campaign team who said there wouldn’t be an unrealized gains tax: that guy sucks.
Do you understand what a grass-roots organization is? By definition, you can’t helicopter in and create a grassroots organization. Are you going to stand by these statements here, in good faith, and argue that if Harris did these things, she would have won the election?
Because this looks like some thin ass bullshit. Tittering around the edges. I think you need to face reality.
It wasn’t gonna get saved by the people that claimed there was no genocide and actively funding it
The options were Gaza destroyed but worst or Gaza destroyed but at least it was a Democrat instead. Not lesser evils when it’s still reprehensibly evil.
Gaza is saved! For Trumps new golf resort!
The ones who withheld their votes in the same action rubber stamped the construction of Trump tower in Gaza.
100% this. It’s all so tiresome to listen to those types, too. They really do think they are so very self-righteous and better than the “neoliberal shills”, etc. 🙄
If Harris wanted to win the election, they needed to listen to us and capitulate. It’s not more complicated than that. We gave the roadmap, we were informed, and the post mortems show us to have been right the entire time.
Harris ran a losing campaign. That’s an objective fact. We have a path to winning the election. Internet wide, apologists for Democrats chose to ban us, silence us, and wag their finger. Butt they didn’t have right of it. Their calculations were wrong.
We were litterally begging Harris to just fucking lie to us about her position on Gaza. Just fucking signal that she’d do something, anything to push back on Israel. She couldn’t even muster the most mediocre of efforts.
Then they lost the election.
And here’s the issue, and I’ve outlined this ad nauseum, and I’ll continue to do so until everyone understands: you don’t control the electorate.
You don’t have a choice in what people think or how they behave. And there are no functional mechanisms to move populations of people to whatever you think they “should” believe or how you think they should act. Moving populations is a decadal, generational project.
There is one path to winning elections: understand the electorate, and then move candidates into adopting those positions. You can’t shame, badger, or otherwise abuse voters into voting how you want them to. It doesn’t work. It doesn’t if you don’t like it. Trying to do so is counterproductive.
Bit weird how Darwin keeps ignoring you every time you prove him wrong. Even when pinged, he doesn’t reply to you. I’m sure there’s nothing weird about that.
Sorry, you didn’t instantly say you’d vote for no matter who they appoint without the consent of the voters, so you’re going to banned and ignored now.
Vote Blue No Matter Who! Even if they actively harm their own campaign, pledge to have a stronger border than Trump, actively enable genocide, and fail to keep promises that got voters engaged.
@CharlesDarwin@lemmy.world You said you never actually got any response from leftists. Here’s one. Why didn’t you answer it?
^ Well, I’m not sure if this is an actual question in good faith given this is coming from a banned account.
But, to answer it - I’m not sure if I said I never get response from leftists. Hell, I consider myself and many I affiliate with a leftist (despite all the arguments in bad faith that tend to kick off by calling everyone with even a slight disagreement a “shitlib” or a “neoliberal shill” and so on). If I said that, I didn’t mean it - what I meant is that I see less of them (online) since the election.
I have enough of the type of unapologetic unhelpful bad-faith types of “leftists” in my personal life even if all the online trolls/bots really did disappear immediately after the election.
I’ve had the conversation enough times and it’s nearly always done in bad faith and delusion. I’ve had it so many times that I could practically write out their responses anyway, so I don’t really see it going anywhere. In any case, I’m sure I’ll have it IRL soon enough as I have enough associates of the tankie archetype. It’s weird how much of the Murc’s Law media and reactionary centrist tropes they have adopted, that’s for sure…if I didn’t experience this kind of thing IRL, I’m not sure I’d even be convinced that all of these online characters were not just a form of online agent provocateur. I believe that at least some of the online people legitimately hold their views.
Vote blue no matter who, liberal!
I know I will.
I get the feeling that you would vote for Donald Trump if he switched party and the DNC was somehow okay with it.
Who do you favor? Donald Trump (D) vs Jefferson Davis ( R)? Or third party?
Well, since the orange shitstain just sits in the “first bedroom”, eating KFC and watching Animal Planet and doesn’t actually have any convictions or positions of his own and the entire administration would actually be calling all the shots, I would likely vote for Trump in that case once in the voting booth. Trump was actually a Democrat until 2009, he could have the Dem nominee if all of this had played out a particular way in 2008 instead of 2016. That said, I definitely would have been trying everything to keep the DNC from picking Trump up until the convention.
I guess it depends on who was really running against Trump since a 140 year old confederate corpse wouldn’t be.
Right, that’s what I was thinking. I admit Jefferson Davis was probably a bad example, but I was trying to go for someone who is clearly worse than Trump. With the scenario of:
- The Republicans abandon Trump and instead support a young guy who openly advocates war with Denmark, annexing Canada, and nuking the fuck out of Britain and France. This individual has also been leading a small scale guerilla war against Canada with some gun nut crazy people.
- The window shifts so far to the right that the DNC accepts Trump as a viable primary candidate. MAGA switches over to the Democrat party in droves, and some elements of the media assist Trump in the primary. Trump somehow wins despite his opposition’s best efforts.
- General becomes Trump ( D ) vs The Guy Who’s at War with Canada ( R )
Under such circumstances, I can see the Blue No Matter Who folks voting for Trump of their own free will in the general, because “he’ll die of old age soon anyway”.
I get the feeling you would suck Trump’s dick if it tasted like candy and everyone was weirdly cool with it, but we don’t live in your wackass alternate realities. The differences between party policies is night and day, and Trumps antics would get him removed in an instant if it were up to every GOP and 20 DNC.
So you would absolutely vote for him if you saw “Donald Trump (Democratic Party)” on the ballot? Thank you for clearing that up.
What are you even talking about?
Sorry you don’t want to win, if you wish to keep Republicans elected, you can just swap party affiliation. You clearly don’t care about what Democrats want, only their corporate donors from the military-industrial complex.
You’re right. I don’t care about what the Democrats want.
I instead care about advancing Western Europe’s interests in the US.
Why Western Europe’s interests as opposed to the world’s interests? Western Europe is doing relatively fine, it seems to me that I have a greater responsibility to look out for the global poor, especially those who are suffering due to US intervention.
It’s because I have a high opinion of France, Spain, and Portugal. Especially Portugal.
But why should US politics be oriented towards helping people who are already wealthy and secure instead of people who are poor and vulnerable, especially when their situation is our fault?
It’s because I want a Western European style constitution instead. And I don’t speak Portuguese.
The user above you seems to be advocating that we vote for the only opposition the Republicans have ever had with any chance of actually winning elections, so your statement doesn’t really make sense. You’re saying voting for the only other option is keeping them elected? Are you Bizarro Superman?
Harris could have stood in the middle of 5th avenue, and shot someone, and still not lost some people’s vote.
We had answers to get Harris elected. She and her working for free sycophants said that she didn’t need them to win. She lost. Her sycophants then went on to say the people who they didn’t need or needed to listen to cost them the election.
Again, sorry you don’t want to have the DNC ever win again. You can just turn in your I Voted sticker for a MAGA hat, there’s no difference in the end. Sorry we tried to help her win, not sorry we were right all along and were ignored.
So, once again, you’re saying the DNC advocates, us, are opposed to the DNC winning?
Careful. This kid will report you.
For breaking rules? Sure hope so.
With advocates like you, who needs Republican propaganda?
no fucking shit. idiots.
Ya, no shit.
