I made a similar post a couple of years ago, but I think it’s time again after seeing a few nice-guy/incel posts here. So, guys who have made it to the other side, what would you say to your previous self? I’ll leave my own personal answer in a comment below.
Looks matter.
No, they really aren’t. Self care however does matter, and confidence matters, but looks alone do not
You asked what advice I would give my past self, so I said it. You don’t have to “high moral ground” me.
And look does in fact matter. To deny it is to be delusional.
Lack of self care leads to looking like shit.
Which I won’t say is unattractive, but someone who takes care of themselves is much more attractive. That can mean working out, it can also mean just making sure you don’t look like you’ve completely given up every day you walk out the door.
I’m here proud of everyones growth arc. Good on you all!!
I used to be like that too but have grown out of it for years now. Main focus besides getting into Software Engineer, Linux, Open Source, and making Fangames is looking to make friends/community now with plenty of all kinds of people from all over the world for all kinds of interests.
My Origin Story could not be any closer to what a villain would have gone through to become what they are now. Yet I still made the realization that they just didn’t want me as part of their family and not everyone are like them. I shortened it a huge amount removing a lot more but gave a good rundown on some core stuff of what happened and how it changed me:
I was the definition of a person trapped inside and never learning how to be a person much less a human being. Think Tarzan but indoors and if he was treated like a maximum security prisoner since he was a kid just for being a completely misunderstood child nobody wanted. As I grew older I was treated like garbage by being blamed for a lot out of misunderstandings, little bad things turned into humongous problems, good things done flipped as a bad thing, and nothing at all turned into something. Resulting in solitary confinement up to adulthood. By then I believed you had to be a complete non-listening badass asshole that will get anything they want by being like that including getting women.
I was never taught how to speak to others and was never listened to by older family members who just never wanted to hear me out at all. So I did the same to others. They value money as a hierarchy for who gets treated well. So I did the same to others even though I had none just to feel better about being at the bottom of the totem pole.
Outcasting me from everybody else in the family because they thought I would cause harm when really I was staring at people because I wanted to interact/play/have fun with them. Just like that one kid spirit from Dandadan. Then just like Gaara from Naruto you accidentally broke a persons arm and then everyone fears you and what you will do.
Mother, Brother, and Father not wanting me only caring for me because they have to not because they wanted to. My separated parents both wanting daughters instead of a son. Brother surveillancing me since he hated me so I searched all kinds of things just to mess with him for decades. No grandparents. No role models. Like being stuck inside with multiple snakes that keep biting you and filling you with venom turning you into the monster they want you/ believe you to be over the years.
Hate to admit it but I almost became a complete villain. I truly thought for so many years everyone was garbage fake selfish trash from elementary school up to mid-20’s. Where everything was handed to you by being worse than everybody else. But I realized with the internet of all things overtime that it was just my family who have their own trauma that they inflicted on me and that there are many awesome people out there just by being themselves who want to have fun with others. Not everyone was like them. It was such a huge thing to realize. The thing that sucks is I do have decades of not living life since I was inside all the time gaining multiple Complex PTSD’s surviving my own family. That is a lot of catching up to do but it has made me who I am today. That I am super proud of and glad I get to have opportunities to make life better for all of us. Treating others like people and being treated like one as well which feels very new to me since I thought everyone was faking being kind.
Now the Good Part:
One thing I have come to realize now is how important what you surround yourself with transforms who you are consciously and subconsiously overtime. If anyone truly wants to change their own life then take note of everything in your life and then choose to change all of it that is not working or bad. Do not be around shitty people. Do not consume complete brain rot. Do not sit so much because it makes you lazy or at least do asian squats as that is a healthy default. Do not let others say who you are but do tell yourself who you are with affirmations.
Do care about people who will actually appreciate it and they will do the same. Do treat and love a woman like a person and she will love you as a person and as a man. Do therapy in multiple ways to see what works for you since there are all kinds of ways to do that are also free and low-cost. Do seek out community not just in-person but online too to be helpful. Do fulfill that need to belong but also leave room for others to belong as well. Do listen genuinely to others and go deeper on what gets them to wake up every day. Do love life and the ability to enjoy this planet with everybody else. That is the ultimate gift not having to be alone on this planet
Note: You want a woman/women then become your best self for you not influenced negatively by others and be someone that the community and your interest groups can be proud of.
Do reading as well and read goodgoodgood.co’s article about hope. It is the foundation for what everyone needs for an amazing life based on science
I didn’t fall all the way down the incel rabbit hole. I was a “nice guy” and I was on 4chan around that time. I found the memes making sense, but I had a loving circle of family and friends who were a life line. I was also never as entitled; my take was always if women didn’t want to date me that was something wrong with me. So maybe I do not qualify. But I understand Incels.
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This is the most important. Not everyone you want to kiss is going to want to kiss you. That’s just normal. It’s part of life. Many people will and many more won’t. Don’t be weird.
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Ask you friends about the kinds of women they like (I’m assuming Incels are almost all strait guys). I almost guarantee most of them will have different preferences. Look around at the people you know with partners. The whole spectrum of people out there have all different kinds of partners. You don’t have to be a Chris Hemsworth type, or a Taylor Swift type. Most people aren’t professionally hot, and they still date and fuck all the time. Re calibrate your expectations, for you partner sure, but also yourself.
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Be more interesting. You may not need to be beautiful but you have to have something to demonstrate you’re a complete human being outside; jobs count but not for everything, unless you have an interesting job (for example I was an EMT). It why people try to meet people dancing; you’re demonstrating mastering of useful skills (presumably dance). I’ve taken several writing classes and never fail to get laid. Same goes with my Hebrew classes in college. You demonstrate a skill in an impressive way, and you’re putting youself in the vicinity of new people of might want to kiss you.
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Learn to talk to people. Honestly, what probably saved me the most was when, when looking for how to talk to girls, instead of going on the internet and finding proto Tates, I went to the library and checked out a self help book by Larry King, How to Talk to People. People are usually quite happy to meet someone. Just introduce yourself. Learn to start conversation. Keep it moving. Find common ground. You can mention someone is attractive but don’t make it sexual right away. Maybe it never get sexual. Thats okay. \
All great advice, thank you for your reply. 4 hits hard for me too, for too long I thought as women as “others”, and I didn’t know how to talk to them. It took me way too long to realize they are literally just people. Combine it with 3 and just have interesting things to talk about. Women like to geek out just as much as men do, and a man who can talk about what is interesting to him is way more interesting then “Ooooh a girl!”
Absolutely. Even if it’s something they don’t understand. A lot of people just like this display of mastery; there is a domain at which you are at complete ease and confidence. I mentioned the hebrew class. I was running a study group. I learned it at a young age, and was mostly just taking it in university for language credits. Watching me take everyone’s questions, simply, and patiently answering them over the course of about ninety minutes was what did it. A similar thing happened when I guided six people in created DnD characters. Yapping about networks. Home repair. When people talk about confidence, its what they mean.
Exactly, now for nice guys reading we aren’t saying that everything is going to be interesting to every girl out there, but some confidence and passion about what you geek out on will be a winning combo for the right person.
My wife and I geeked out for a solid hour on Lord of the Rings when we met.
That’s what people mean when they say ‘be yourself.’ It’s useful advice for someone in their late 20s or early 30s, when your frustrated by jerks and want to find the right person.
But it sounds useless to someone who is 16 and is trying to get the cheerleader to like him.
Yeah, unfortunately remembering what it was like back then the hard truth is I couldn’t find someone to like me before I even know who I was. I had to build my personality and who I was before I could uh, “market” it. But, try telling my greasy faced basement dweller self that I had no personality, I would have been dejected at that. No my man (referring to younger me), there is so much more out there
Ask you friends about the kinds of women they like (I’m assuming Incels are almost all strait guys). I almost guarantee most of them will have different preferences. Look around at the people you know with partners. The whole spectrum of people out there have all different kinds of partners. You don’t have to be a Chris Hemsworth type, or a Taylor Swift type. Most people aren’t professionally hot, and they still date and fuck all the time. Re calibrate your expectations, for you partner sure, but also yourself.
I’ve noticed women seem to fall into the “one ideal body” kind of thinking quite often as well. Obviously, the resulting breakdown takes different forms than inceldom, but they’re still plenty bad.
They absolutely do, maybe even more than men, because sexualization and body image issues are so reinforced among women to almost be completely normalized. The obvious differences are obviously due to the object-holder dynamic. Women are told they are pretty objects to be possessed, while men are told they are owed such objects.
lol I’m not even a philosopher I feel like Im talking out my ass. I hope I’m still making sense. I’m also preeminently unqualified to give advice about to anyone except strait guys.
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Do mushrooms to snap yourself out of your self pity spiral
Just be a better person
Also become a girl
Mushrooms annoy me to no end. I don’t know why, I can trip on LSD for 12 hours just fine but after 2 hours of shrooms I’m just DONE.
Honestly I prefer microdosing over most other things.
My first highs were not a lot, like 1g, enough to get some minor visuals, and lasted like 5 hrs or so
“Become a girl.”
Unironically being just slightly more feminine helps turn around your life a lot.
Turns out the hyper masculinity thing is a huge turnoff for most women. Not all, but a huge percentage of women eyeroll at the big trucks and the macho atmosphere.
Wish granted, now creeps are out to fuck you, and you still didn’t find love.
Shortly after the mushrooms and realizing it wasn’t cringe to care about others, I met my now wife of 9 years.
I’ll admit I just got around to becoming a girl last year, but if I didn’t meet someone, I would have transitioned like 8 years ago.
Wow, so this is an actual life story!
Happy for you two, and hope your wife was gentle and welcoming about your transition!
Thanks :3
She’s the best, super supportive.
It gets better, but omg is finding someone hard even 9 years ago.
Just gotta try to be a good person and keep rolling those dice.
I mean, I’m guessing OP actually did it, so maybe or maybe not.
Mushrooms have helped me tremendously as well
“You’re autistic but won’t find out until you’re 33. Everyone else sees it in you and that isn’t a problem, the problem is you were born in Oklahoma and they will call you gay because they don’t know the slightest real thing about you.”
“Don’t become cruel. People may suck but they’re what makes life worth living.”
“When people tell you who they are, believe them. The good and the bad.”
Ah yes, all nonstandard behavior is gay. What a very intelligent and non-nonsensical way to sort the world. /s
“When people tell you who they are, believe them. The good and the bad.”
Hmm. Good too? I usually take the bragging with a grain of salt.
If you talk about how you’re a cheater, or signal affinity with a hate group, or just are rude to waiters I’m certainly not going to forget that, though.
Don’t get hung up on “tell” meaning “words”
Ah, okay. With the bad stuff people do literally just announce it sometimes.
In high school I was a Nice Guy and resented the fact that I couldn’t have a girlfriend. I was smart, funny, and very caring. Why couldn’t girls see that!? There were a couple times girls showed interest, but they quickly ditched me. Stupid girls!
Then I went to college, angry at women. I’d go to parties, hook up, and then ghost/ignore them. It was really satisfying to have them be on the other side of the situation. Take that, girls!
After college, I continued to go out and try to hook up and keep that mean streak going. Girls in the Real World were having none of that. Sure, an occasional hookup, but by and large the party was over.
Depressed and lonely, I realized that being a dick wasn’t working, and being a Nice Guy didn’t work. This forced some serious introspection. Instead of single-mindedly going for women, I needed to live my life and stop worrying about it. The world is big and I’m a small part of it.
Once I stopped caring about all that and released my own tiny ego, something magical happened: women wanted me! They would sometimes go out of their way to talk to me! And by treating them as people and not objects, they stuck around. My future wife approached me, we dated as equals, and we’ve now been married 22 years.
Don’t get me wrong, I still had a lot to work on mentally. We all do and always will need to. But the evolution of mentality is essential to shedding the Nice Guy/incel disease. I feel significant guilt for the people I hurt along the way. The best I can do now is to be kind to people, empathize, and try to leave things better than I found them.
double tap on chest as form of respect
90% of what the TV and society told you doesn’t apply.
You aren’t just weird, you have definable conditions.
Go to therapy.
Your needs are as valid as anyone else’s.
Oh my god I thought rom-coms were pure romance and real. They are not. Breaking down most romcoms the vast majority are stalkerish behavior and refusing to accept no. Not like real life at all. Learning that one was hard for me.
Yeah. I thought it was exaggerated a little for TV, but, no, that stuff can be straight up harassment irl
For me, the best advice I ever heard was “Being nice isn’t a personality, it’s literally the bare minimum”.
I always thought of myself as the “Nice Guy”, who just couldn’t ever find a girl to be with me. I didn’t understand it, I was funny, I was nice to girls, I did things like read books and watch intellectual movies, and so many stereotypes. I was single for most of high school and college and all the while I thought this.
It got worse with message boards/Reddit, where I had other people convincing me that yeah, I’m right, it’s the women who are wrong. They don’t want nice guys anymore, they want bad guys, they don’t know what is best for them. This caused resentment and anger in me.
In college I was lucky enough to meet some new friends that brought me out of this mindset, who sternly but lovingly told me that hey, maybe I wasn’t actually as nice as I thought I was. Maybe thinking that women only want bad guys and being upset no one wanted to date me was much more obvious then I let on, and the biggest gut punch that I think most nice guys need to here: Everyone knows you’re not being nice, you’re trying to manipulate them. Looking back, yeah I was, I was trying to be nice so they would want to be with me, not because I wanted to be nice.
After that I worked on myself. Not the cliche hit the gym or anything, but just worked on being more pleasant to be around. Being more self aware. My sarcasm is funny - to people who I know get it and understand I’m being sarcastic, otherwise they probably think I’m an asshole. Just be nice to people and don’t expect anything, just be a good person. Work on my personality, nice isn’t a personality, build hobbies and things to talk about, and show interest in other people’s hobbies - genuinely.
Which worked. By being less self absorbed and focused on getting a girlfriend, I became someone who was attractive, and not because I was buff or attractive physically, but because I was not exhausting to be around. I came out the other side a better person, and I hope others can too. Looking inward and having those hard conversations with yourself are not fun, but that’s life. Nothing in life comes easy, and working on yourself emotionally is one of the hardest, but also rewarding things you can do.
Wholesome. Good on you for getting out of the women love bad guys mindset. It makes no sense and it’s very toxic.
Some women like excitement, I imagine. Some “bad guys” might bring that. But most people just want to be with someone genuine who can take care of themselves and care about them. And people want to laugh. Be seen. Be heard.
I was very shy growing up but I cracked after I realized that people just want to be treated like I want to be treated. With respect, and the other things I mentioned. Once I realized I had the ability to give those things, I grew out of my shell. Also getting over the fear of unsuccessfully attempting to be someone’s friend. We don’t have to be friends with everyone. Not everyone will like you, and that’s okay. I don’t like everyone either.
Once you find someone who likes you, latch on. Whether it’s a friend or a romantic partner. 😊
I like how you said that. Women just want you to be interesting. Some women like excitement like you said, but almost all women just want you to show interest in things. I think a lot of nice guys see “jocks” and sports bros as annoying but they have women so there is resentment there too - but they wrongly put the blame on appearances and their views of “they’re jerks” so women must like jerks. No, in all honesty the thing is that those bros probably have more of a personality than you do right now, or at least can express it better. Sure they like sports, I bet they talk passionately about them too, and have conversations, ask follow up questions of their partners about them.
For me, eh sports they’re fine, but I do have other passions that I can talk about and ask others about. Now I have a wife who does drag me to games every once in a while, but she also goes and watches trains with me, and we play video games, and we share passions like that. Nice guys think they need to “worship” women or something. No, just be interesting.
just be interesting
And like, “jocks” in high school or college don’t even have to be that nice, or good at conversation or whatever, because being good at sports—being good at anything—can be interesting enough. Add to that a good physique… 😙👌 More than a good enough catalyst for a (quick) romance. Especially with young people who confuse love and infatuation. Been there.
Everyone knows you’re not being nice, you’re trying to manipulate them.
I was trying to be nice so they would want to be with me, not because I wanted to be nice.
After that I worked on myself.
worked on being more pleasant to be around.
Just be nice to people and don’t expect anything
show interest in other people’s hobbies - genuinely.
Which worked. By being less self absorbed and focused on getting a girlfriend, I became someone who was attractive
I see, so rather than trying to make people want to be with you by being nice, you should be nice to people and then they’ll be attracted to you. Uhh… wut? Sounds like you haven’t changed at all.
trying to manipulate
Which worked
How is what you did “after” different from what you did “before”?
“niceness” from incels is very different from genuine niceness with no ulterior motive, with an incel mind, its always expectation of gain, when they dont gain something from its always a mysogynistic response. its very easy to detect when someone is being Actually nice, and someone is faking a niceness.
“niceness” from incels is very different from genuine niceness with no ulterior motive
I disagree.
its very easy to detect when someone is being Actually nice, and someone is faking a niceness.
That seems very naive to me.
No, over text they might sound similar, but in person it’s easier to see that the difference is between being performative in his niceness as a means to have friends/a girlfriend versus being nice as a means toward being his better self, with friends following naturally from that.
Thanks, yeah it’s hard to state over text. The big thing was realizing I wasn’t being nice - I was acting nice so that a girl would like me. Huge difference. You have to just be a good person, and many other things. Acting nice is very transparent. Being nice is a completely separate thing.
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versus being nice as a means toward being his better self
No, OP said “which worked”, which implies that his being nice was not just a means toward being his better self but also a means to get what he wanted from other people. Like before.
I think I can forgive someone using the language of their past self when reflecting upon that past. In the context of the paragraph, I think it’s fair to say that “which worked” means something more along the lines of “and things did get better.” Maybe he could have improved his word choice in that instance, but I don’t think that negates everything else said.
I can already hear you saying “but that’s not what he said, and that was his choice of words.” And to that, I point to one of the key lessons I learned in college philosophy: questions of meaning come before questions of truth. In this case where one short two word sentence does not fit the rest of what he is saying, I think it’s best to ask what they could mean that would fit.
one short two word sentence does not fit the rest of what he is saying
I disagree. The two word sentence fits precisely everything else he said, which seems to describe exactly the same behaviour with exactly the same end goal as he had originally. There doesn’t seem to be any difference between “before” and “after”.
One Key difference is that you are nice because you think it is good. Not because it will gain you something. The mindset is different. You don’t complain when you are nice and get nothing in return. Because you just did the right thing. Like you also don’t expect people to thank you for not punching them in their face when you walk by. Not punching them is simply the right thing to do. So now you are a baseline decent human.
Not because it will gain you something.
OP saying “which worked” implies he hoped it would gain him something.
This is all going to sound super dumb and obvious, but I think that underlines how delusional young straight men can become about themselves and the world. The first step was sloooowly coming to the realization that:
A) I’m not unique, special, important, and/or entitled to anything. Ever.
B) I’m not nearly as fucking smart as I think I am, and everyone else is much smarter than I think they are. Which is the perfect combination to make me incredibly stupid.
After it took me embarrassingly far into my 20’s to come to terms with all that, I literally had to start from scratch on retraining how I thought about how I interacted with/viewed everything and everyone.
I had no empathy, respect, or regard. I spent years blaming my lack of quality relationships on other people and “society.” Whatever the fuck that means.
I was living in a vacuum. All I could do was judge people on whether or not they were worth my time, while having zero understanding that I absolutely wasn’t worth anyone’s time.
I thought being funny, knowing things, and being good at stuff made me a real catch and, sadly, better than everybody.
My father is a massive selfish pile of shit, and I spent my youth hating him for all of those exact same behaviors. I dunno what finally let me see it, but it took way too long to get there.
Years later I would read a quote from (I think) Sylvia Plath about how “women are not machines you put the nice coins in until the sex comes out” (paraphrasing, didn’t Google) and that exactly defines how I thought about women.
By my late 20s I had begun correcting my perspective. I spent a lot of time working on what I have to offer, rather than what others can offer me. It improved the quality of all my relationships. I’m in my early 40s now, ten years into a wonderful relationship. I look back at myself and think about how small and fragile I was. Now I think a lot about time. How precious it is, and you can’t get it back. My partner now loves me so much, I want to try every day to return that love and be worth her time.
I see other guys at all ages living in the same sad little world I lived in. I wish I could run a seminar teaching dudes they aren’t that fucking great.
My experience echos yours. Bad examples of manliness, seeing things as transactional, and being so focused only on myself.
Making friends with some really great people and getting treated for depression helped me break free from the cycle and start putting others first and understanding myself more had really helped me be a person that other people can enjoy being around.
Can you elaborate on your second sentence some? Trying to understand better where this comes from
Bad examples of manliness, seeing things as transactional, and being so focused only on myself.
My dad has a narcissistic type of personality. I’m going to just insert this bit from Mayo Clinic to save me a ton of time.
Symptoms of narcissistic personality disorder and how severe they are can vary. People with the disorder can:
- Have an unreasonably high sense of self-importance and require constant, excessive admiration.
- Feel that they deserve privileges and special treatment.
- Expect to be recognized as superior even without achievements.
- Make achievements and talents seem bigger than they are.
- Be preoccupied with fantasies about success, power, brilliance, beauty or the perfect mate.
- Believe they are superior to others and can only spend time with or be understood by equally special people.
- Be critical of and look down on people they feel are not important.
- Expect special favors and expect other people to do what they want without questioning them.
- Take advantage of others to get what they want.
- Have an inability or unwillingness to recognize the needs and feelings of others.
- Be envious of others and believe others envy them.
- Behave in an arrogant way, brag a lot and come across as conceited.
- Insist on having the best of everything — for instance, the best car or office.
At the same time, people with narcissistic personality disorder have trouble handling anything they view as criticism. They can:
- Become impatient or angry when they don’t receive special recognition or treatment.
- Have major problems interacting with others and easily feel slighted.
- React with rage or contempt and try to belittle other people to make themselves appear superior.
- Have difficulty managing their emotions and behavior.
- Experience major problems dealing with stress and adapting to change.
- Withdraw from or avoid situations in which they might fail.
- Feel depressed and moody because they fall short of perfection.
- Have secret feelings of insecurity, shame, humiliation and fear of being exposed as a failure.
When to see a doctor
People with narcissistic personality disorder may not want to think that anything could be wrong, so they usually don’t seek treatment. If they do seek treatment, it’s more likely to be for symptoms of depression, drug or alcohol misuse, or another mental health problem. What they view as insults to self-esteem may make it difficult to accept and follow through with treatment.
So long story short, a lot of treating the world like it owes you something and being an asshole to people when they don’t live up to your unreasonable expectations. Everything had to revolve around him, and that is the example I got, as I wasn’t around many other adults.
Relationships were transactional. I did this, this, and this, so now you owe me this, no excuse. It’s like grinding in a game. Complete these objectives, earn this reward. But that isn’t how life is. You can do as you please, as nice or rude as you want, but so can everyone else. If I did something nice for someone, that should be out of wanting to be nice to them, not to make them owe me something and being rude if they don’t see it that way.
In the OP’s nice guy scenario, guys will compliment someone, do them a favor, listen to them when they need someone to talk to, and not see that as being a friend or supportive person, but basically as points. I helped you, so now you should owe me a date, for instance. You see the boyfriend thing not as a partner, but a business relationship. I did this, so why aren’t you doing that? You aren’t thinking of building an equal partnership with someone, you are being selfish and inconsiderate of them as their own person. It’s totally hollow, because even though another person is there, they’re not really actively involved in the relationship, they are basically a game piece in your eyes when you think that way. You don’t care what they want or feel, you see it as they owe you something. And who would want to be with someone like that? But a person with that mindset can’t place themselves in the other person’s shoes and they lash out of anger instead. The other person will usually just WTF on out of there, and I don’t blame them.
So much of my life has been me losing friendships for having an egocentric view like this. Everyone tires of it eventually. Some last longer, others see how you are right away. I am constantly reminded of such cringe stuff I’ve done, and now that I understand it after getting medicine for my depression, I was able to see what I was doing and fix it. I found better examples of how to be a respectable person, and made friends with women instead of trying to “win” them. Now I’m able to be an interesting and well rounded person that people will naturally like…usually. Some people will still dislike you, not want to date you, or be rude to you for no apparent reason, but that’s just how it goes, and I can handle that now.
I’ll shut up now, since that’s a lot, but if you want to hear more about anything else, or if I’ve missed the mark on what you’re looking for, I can talk more.
Everyone tires of it eventually. Some last longer, others see how you are right away
This one hit home for me. I had solid friends who I thought would be lifelong friends, but even they tired of my constant sarcasm and annoying tendencies. When you’re constantly a drag to be around, why would others want to hang out with you?
Yes, I lost some really great people along the way. But I understand it perfectly now why they felt they had to move on from me.
I’m glad we can have conversations like this here. It feels really important to discuss this, and I hope the person I think that inspired you to make this post reads this and can turn his life around.
It isn’t always easy to publicly admit we used to be this way, but I feel it benefits the community as a whole.
That’s what I thought personally, there were some nice-guy incel posts being posted here, and I’m open about what I used to be. God knows when I was younger I was looking for guidance, I can’t imagine looking now and seeing all those “alpha male” bros on the internet, it probably is tempting. They’re saying all the easy answers, that it’s women’s fault, that you just gotta be more manly.
I’m proud of what this space is, where we can be open and honest, and I hope that the person who inspired the post reads through this. It is not the easy path, but it’s the best path forward.
This right here. Exact same thing for me.
Your first line of how it all seems stupidly obvious now is so true. But that’s the thing about being self-centered, that you can’t get any other perspective on it.
I’m glad you were able to get out of that cycle!
It’s still there. If my little ego gets bumped too hard, or someone isn’t having any of my shit on an off day my knee-jerk reaction is to go right back to that place. But I try to keep my poop in a group, most of the time.
Poop in a group is good 😄
And it was depression that was keeping you in that mindset?
After getting my depression treated, I was able to really work on myself better and have lasting results. With the untreated depression, it was like trying to rebuild a house while it was still on fire. I’d try to fix one part of my while the other stuff was still actively messing me up. Getting treated let me let go of a lot of things that were just a byproduct of my own mind and focus on what the root causes of things were. I wasn’t reliving slices of all my previous bad days every day. I could come to terms with things in my past, see what I did that was cringe/jerky/etc and understand it and see better ways to go through life.
It was far from a quick fix, and I still have to live with that part of me, ala The Babbadook. This year in particular has been very hard on me. Medication just lets me manage it, it does nothing to fix core problems. That’s why many people go to therapy in addition to medication. Meds do just enough so I can sweep away the bad crap my mind tries to trick me with before it causes trouble.
What it feels like and how people react to it is different for everyone because we all have different brain chemisty and different underlying and associated issues. For me, a quick visit to my GP and a cheap Rx for Lexapro gave me what I needed. My partner had a much harder time and it took a few years to get sorted out. She also talks to the therapist and has done DBT programs and group therapy to get where she is, while I usually do ok on my own or just talking things out to her or friends.
It can be a real struggle, but it really sucks being your own worst enemy and is far, far worth it to talk to a medical professional if you think you are having problems. No matter where you try to hide from things, you can’t escape your own mind, and it knows every way to really mess you up if it wants to. It isn’t being weak and it doesn’t mean you are a bad person, it’s taking personal responsibility for yourself. You wouldn’t try to heal a broken leg yourself, and a mind is no different. Some things are best left to the pros.
Huh. So the depression was using up so much mental bandwidth it made the difference between being able to reflect and improve and not being able to. Interesting. I’m glad you’ve figured it out.
Parents modeling shitty behavior definitely happens, but usually kids gravitate towards or away from it pretty continuously, depending on their own personality.
I always knew he was a bad example, but having to grow up in that environment gave me a crappy set of social skills for when I was in the outside world from my family. I had to play the transactional game to stay out of trouble, and worry about my own well-being for most things. From spending my whole development years that way, I knew his behaviors were bad, but without any other context, I couldn’t grasp that I was doing much the same things. I was just being me and what I felt I had to do.
There’s obviously a lot left out of the story, it’s 40+ years of life. I started making progress acting like a decent human in my later 20s / early 30s as I moved out and started meeting better people and being able to spend more time around them. After my wife divorced me, I spent a lot of time by myself reflecting and that was when I went to the doctor about depression as I was completely humbled and ready to face up to having problems I couldn’t fix on my own.
After getting medicine, it was the last boost I needed, as I was able to let go of a lot of things holding me back. Whenever something would go bad, it would feel like it would drag every memory of me screwing up or people “screwing me over” back up to the surface and it would just swallow me whole. I couldn’t get anywhere because I’d just go into survival mode and shut down. Medicated me can tell those memories to shut up because I need to tend to the current thing that needs my attention. Which at that time was for me to stop being a jerk.
I still get mad at myself for all the bad things I did to people and to myself, but now they moreso serve as a reminder to stay being my best than something that really haunts me. Everything is just more manageable is about all I can say. It’s hard for me to really accurately verbalize my feelings through all these time periods without really taking a ton of time. I just think a lot of people, especially men these days, suffer with a lot of this stuff, and I’d rather rehash my worst times than see people get sucked down deeper into manosphere and incel crap. I haven’t forgotten for a second how bad and lonely those feelings are, and I don’t want to see other people go through it feeling alone.
Wow, congratulation on coming all the way back from that!
Thank ye. I am much happier now, but I’m also super ashamed that it had to happen at all. Like how long it took me to realize that all people are equal is super lame. I think about it all the time. It scares me how easy it would be to just not care about anyone and behave however I want, and just move through life like that. Like a lot of people do.
Interesting answer. Would you mind trying to explain a bit how you think you got that way in the first place? Where do you think that early mindset came from?
I mean my parents are not good people. Huge part of it. Alcoholism and anger pretty much ruled the roost in my childhood.
Not that it alleviates me of any blame, but I’ve always been very comfortable with negativity and confrontation.
I also think they’re is a lot of it that comes from "children raising children; " In regards to how much behavior I learned from boys my own age, and boys only slightly older, but no less ignorant.
It’s funny how sensitive I was to anything remotely hurtful, and simultaneously completely without empathy for anyone of any kind.
How did you managed to find time to work?
I mean, the only real convenient part of an existential crisis is that its with you, every minute of every day. So being a bag of shit goes with me everywhere!
I see now that a big reason for my behavior was that I actually wanted to be a girl. I’ve always been jealous that girls were usually the ones being picked up. I wanted to be complimented, I wanted to be cute and I imagined myself as girls I liked… However, I thought at the time that transfems always ended up as ugly beings who look neither feminine nor masculine. Well, now I know that not only beauty is highly subjective, but also there are also non-binary people. And that many trans people are virtually undistinguishable from cis people, but they receive the last media attention… guess why.
So yeah, I would try to tell myself in the most gentle way possible to research the topic
If you wouldn’t want to date yourself, then why would anyone else? That might not help someone who feels doomed to be alone, but that’s really what it comes down to. The way out isn’t resenting others for not liking you - it’s becoming the kind of person people would want to like.
I also think there’s a lot of confusion around the idea of “nice guys.” It’s not that women love jerks - it’s that being a jerk can act as a proxy for confidence and perceived high value. It can work in the short term, but it’s not sustainable. What most people really want is someone who can stand up for themselves without constantly posturing. Being nice isn’t virtuous if it’s all you’ve got. Being capable but choosing to be kind - that’s the ideal. People want someone with boundaries, not a doormat.
This is what makes it feel pretty unfair to me, because many people that’s just not their personality. What if the person I really want to be is someone pleasant to be around but MOST people wouldn’t really want to date? I.e. being really esoteric, being quieter, really standing up for what they believe in (to the point where it’s annoying for 99% of people), whatever.
I know many people like that and I’m like yeah this person is nice fun to be around and pretty cool, but they’re too extreme in one way or another. Don’t get me wrong they COULD still find someone, but if you’re weird/different then your pool is a little reduced, and if you don’t want to be the center of attention it’s reduced multiplicatively. It’s like them being nice and pleasant and being the best version of themselves is great, but it can still be really really difficult for them to find someone.
Back in my incel years, a “female me” would’ve been a dream lol. I still lacked self-steem, but had a disproportionate view on my self worth despite being unremarkable in just about everything.
You sound like a regular person to me.
I don’t have so much advice around this because around the time I heard about incels I looked at the subreddit and the thought occurred to me "if I want to have any relationship with a woman, of any kind, if I wanted to relate and communicate with them, then investing time with a group of people who self professed an inability to do so would be a waste of time.
And like I dodged a huge bullet. At the time I was in a college dorm and around a lot of men my age. It was a stark difference in how they viewed relationships with women. It was girlfriend or nothing to them. Friendship was failure. Zero interest. That really weirded me out. I didn’t want to have that attitude.
And yeah it took me a while to fully learn good social habits, and there were missteps that I made along the way. But the basic concept of think and care about women as people and valuing friendship as it’s own thing, not as a failure to date, really works to avoid falling into the hopeless rage of inceldom.
I don’t have so much advice around this because around the time I heard about incels I looked at the subreddit and the thought occurred to me "if I want to have any relationship with a woman, of any kind, if I wanted to relate and communicate with them, then investing time with a group of people who self professed an inability to do so would be a waste of time.
Brilliant observation. I wish more people made it.
Stop trying so hard. And be a better version of yourself instead of someone you’re not.
Simple and sweet :)
I promise it has a good turn
Not me so its a complete outsiders perspective:
A guy i know had long time the mindset that if someone would like to be in a relationship or “available” they could be “assigned” to each other.
(i dont really know if the wording is right but i am sure about the concept)
As in: i had contact with him and when he was gone from school for 2 months i managed to get into a relationship even tho i was like very anti relationship.So when he came back he was dissappointed that i did not choose him as he was “obviously available” and he would have tried to ask me out if i didnt had the “no relationship” stance.
I told him then that i am sure that i would not wanted to be in a relationship with him anyway but the feeling, that he would try to ask me out the moment my relationship breaks he would ask me out.
He also tried to ask like every other girl out to the point where he got thrown out the school twice (second was final)
At some public monthly meetup event he also did that and the girls started avoiding him but he d5d nothing more than asking.
At my last visit at the meetup before moving cities i tried to give him my unfiltered, less comfortable opinion about his behavior which he later dismissed completly as i heard from others.
But thankfully months or few years later (too distant for accurate data) he started therapy and with it he started pausing trying to date everything that looks like a woman and from the few instances i saw he got a lot better, less stressed, happier and has more energy
Its awesome too see and i hope next time we meet he got even better (+ that he gets stable enough that i can tease him with a “told u so” because i am still a menace)
Sorry for wall of text
Go places that people want to go, do things that people want to do. Live an interesting life and people will find you interesting.
For me it was Motorcycles. I had one, I knew cool roads, nice views, interesting villages and I was constantly out at get togethers.
I met my fiancée at a BBQ hosted by a motorcycle gear shop. She was interested in cool roads, nice views, interesting towns and so interested in me. Motorcycling (like body building) generally doesn’t attract women, it attracts men, don’t motorcycle for girls.
Before that. I attended dance class. I met a bunch of people, there’s music, exercise, skill expression, creativity, physical contact (I danced Lindy Hop) natural endorphine producers.
I didn’t creep, I was polite, I expressed positivity (If you don’t have anything nice to say, don’t say anything. No-one knew the songs I hated, but they knew the ones i liked. People would seek me out for those songs because they knew it was gonna be A DANCE, etc) and semi groomed (clean, not stylish). I did the lesson as best I could, there were always more “leads” than “follows” so I was always in demand for the free dance time at the end. I asked them how they were, and (I cannot stress enough: WITHOUT CREEPING) about their lives. It’s not an interview, it’s a conversation, not everyone is a potential date. I was primarily there to learn to dance Lindy Hop and Charleston, meeting very pretty, in shape girls was a massive side benefit. Talking to them just kinda happens, you’re together for a few minutes dancing away, might as well ask her name.
If conversation is hard, it is for me, practice at work. Force yourself to learn about people’s lives, learn how to make it natural, learn how to recognise your hitting a boundary before crossing it. Work is great, people are forced to talk to you and you’ll find extroverts (easy mode) and introverts (hard mode) there. When you have introverts telling you what they’re up to, you know you can make people feel valued through conversation.
The truth is don’t do anything for girls, any girl, that isn’t a collection of red flags, can sense the insincerity. Do a thing you want to do, and go places where a girl that is interested in that thing might go.
Work is great, people are forced to talk to you
Downside is the boundaries are narrower at work and if you do cross them, it makes the whole thing a lot more creepy and could have more potential consequences in a place that doesn’t just tolerate workplace sexual harassment.
I do wonder how many guys are unaware of how creepy some things might be because of their own experiences. Like, I had a guy show up at my work before normal hours while I was alone to try to hit on me and did so by asking such wonderful questions as “are you alone?” and “how often are you alone?” (along with a consecutive series of several other similar flags). And yet I can’t help but wonder if he had no clue how creepy someone would find such. Honestly, I didn’t even think the interaction was creepy until I realized he was trying to hit on me without actually showing any interest in me beyond my body, when it would be alone, and its opinion on reporting SA. I don’t get how someone could possibly think that’s a good way to try to hook up with someone no matter how “friendly” or “nice” you are in the interaction, and yet that wasn’t the last time he tried. Maybe I just don’t get hook-up culture or something.
Not a downside at all in my opinion. There’s a framework and consequences for infractions. (Not really, but in theory)
I love innuendo as humour. I learned not to use it for everyone, everywhere, all the time precisely because I would have been sacked. I’m naturally quite flirty as a person, which I also learned to temper by not getting sacked. I was forced to learn how to ask about that thing you talked about last week. Which forced me to pay attention to what you say this week, so I can ask next week.
So to the dance group: I had already learned what is/n’t appropriate for work, which is close enough for acquaintances. Conversation happens, a bit of personality creeps (intended) out, they back away (I’ve learned to recognise when someone shuts down a conversation at work) I apologise, life goes on me a little the wiser. Or, a bit of personality creeps out, my partner lowers the tone too, life is fun. Usually, when I feel I’ve known someone enough, I’ll let them know I have gutter humour and will flirt with anyone, apologise in advance, let them know I don’t mean anything by it, and that I’m doing my best. I started this because those like me identify and we get to the good times sooner, those not like me don’t identify and I’m more aware around them.
I do wonder how many guys are unaware of how creepy some things might be because of their own experiences.
Too many, and I’m sure I’m guilty of running right up against that line more often than I’m aware. Then again, I’ll flirt with anyone that flirts with me (and I mean anyone), but I’m not looking to hookup at all, engaged and all that.
